Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.

[Andys dad]

I think it has to do with the integrity of our sport and the morality of the racers.

I do not think I could feel good about being that much faster than my competition, without having to invest a lot of my time and effort to do it.

But I guess it is a sign of the times.

In this tough economy there is still plenty of money to be spent by those that are lucky enough to have it. I unfortunately, do not have it at this stage of my life.

If only I had saved all of the money I spent on my current car - I could probably afford one of the new ones.

I just do not think I would enjoy it as much.

I am not jealous - just sad.

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Hmmmm.....

There are "honest" reasons to have a New Car however.

The DP #24 was not bought in anyway with an unfair advantage in mind, my Father wanted one, he wants a lot of things and has them, it was something that held interest to him.

Its something he saw intrinsic value in. Not only now but in the future as a collectible item, and something he wanted us to be a part of like the original AFX Cars.

We were not Class racers to start, the whole thing is still a little alien to us as competitors as is many types of "bracket" or dial racing. We preffer something a little different , but such is the state of Racing and there are few if any heads up classes that are "reasonable" to run in that dont run in that format.

I can tell you this, my father would have bought the car regardless if it, a) was rendered "illegal" or disqualified, b)was factored like a beast and not really even competitive becuase of that c)Wasnt even really THAT fast d) on an on, he STILL would have bought it. Thats him youd have to know him when he gets his teeth or head in something, forget it its gonna happen.

NOW that being said, he bought it, what next ? Build it, we did, Next ? Well its a damm racecar ! We didnt make the rule, the factor, none of it, and we didnt put it where it was. AND We for example STILL would have done it no matter what that was, the fact that it got factored low was never a consideration for its purchase or competition.

Its a Drag Pak, a once in a LIFETIME opportunity to be part of that. Thats all.

Will we take pride in beating another car ? Hell at this point well have pride in just getting it down the track competitivley But once it gets "wrung out" well it STOCK ELIMINATOR ! IF, IF win say an event, it wont be because our car is fast it will be because, a)we know our car b)back it up with the proper driving and RT c)have worked JUST as hard as anyone else doing it.

IF by somehow some chance ONLY win an eliminator because we are up against a much slower car in the same class in a heads up run, if our RT is better then yes it will be a full victory from our (or my) viewpoint, but IF ONLY IF Its ONLY because the combo is underrated, well then yes it will have some hollowness to the victory.

I dont think you can say anything about the "morality" or "integrity" of someone driving a DP or CJ because they are, that seems COMPLETLEY Absurd to me, you would have to know THEIR reasons for doing it.

We invested a LOT of money, and a LOT of blood sweat dissapointments and well a LOT, more in 3 months than MANY do in a Year , 16hr days 7days a week 7000 miles thus far and not 1 National we have yet hoped for because of failures on items.

But maybe I completley misunderstood what you were saying, completley....if so and thats not it, I guess Im not 100% clear on a)what you were asking or b)what you are now saying.

B

Originally Posted by Andys dad

I think it has to do with the integrity of our sport and the morality of the racers.

I do not think I could feel good about being that much faster than my competition, without having to invest a lot of my time and effort to do it.

But I guess it is a sign of the times.

In this tough economy there is still plenty of money to be spent by those that are lucky enough to have it. I unfortunately, do not have it at this stage of my life.

If only I had saved all of the money I spent on my current car - I could probably afford one of the new ones.

I just do not think I would enjoy it as much.

I am not jealous - just sad.

[Andys dad]

At the risk of being attacked here -

Drooze -

"BUT you were talking about something to hurt other competitors ? How ? Is it something that you are doing they cant ? If they can too then how is it hurting them ?"

You answered the number one question – it is OK with you

“How?” Come on - you are a smart guy - you know how

“If they can too then how is it hurting them ?” I guess the key words here are "they can too"

I think the phrase here that applies is "if you can't take the heat - get out of the kitchen" or maybe a better one is "put up or shut up"

[Andys dad]

Let me close with this and then you guys have at me

I appreciate the investment opportunity - good call - wish I could afford it

This was about a Drag Pak or Blown Ford guy going to NHRA and saying "come on - it is obscene" adjust our horsepower

I know that would be an absurd thing to do - it is something that would involve morality and integrity - sportsmanship for the good of fellow competitors and the sport itself

I know there are other combinations which are out of line - but not 125 hp

[NewHemi]

I think a lot of the salient points of this discussion were already held in the Jeff Teuton thread about HP on Monday.

This thread began as a rehetorical question. Now it has become a specifc question about whether the new Fords and Mopars are "fair".

Now that have a specific question, "Are we being fair by running a car that has been erroneously rated?"

When the Mopars hit the track, it was all about "it isn't fair". Now the CJs are hitting the track and it is all about "it isn't fair". Each turn of technolgy wheel will yield another that for a time seems also unfair. And we will have a few new ones coming up as direct injection and variable cam timing are coming.

The unfortunate thing about fair, is that it is subjective. I don't think some of the past Hp ratings were fair, but their unfairness and this situation are simply temporary conditions.

If the question is; should these new technology vehicles have their own classes, the answer probably is yes. Will it happen soon...if ever, who knows what evil lurks in the hearts and minds of men? (Ok Lamar Cranston snuck in for a second..)

Either the old iron needs it's own classes, or the new iron needs it's own classes.

So are we responsible for correcting these temporary imbalance, or will time, do as it has done so many other times, render this argument moot? I vote for time....

As has been pointed out in that other thread, "the tide comes, and the tide goes" To which I simply add, long live the movement of the tide, both ways. It will keep the sport clean by washing in both ways.

David
The New hemi Guy
________
Pov Tubes

[RULER]

Well if you call 20 years a temporary situation witch may or may not be more or less the time some invest in this sport then you may be correct, But this will not correct itself in the next couple of years, These crate engines make the DP and the CJ look weak on paper so if you think this only affects the upper Classes you better look again!!!!!

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

"BUT you were talking about something to hurt other competitors ? How ? Is it something that you are doing they cant ? If they can too then how is it hurting them ?"
You answered the number one question – it is OK with you

NO I said it MAY be, your question was so wholly Vauge in its origin, I provided examples of what may or may not be OK, with me. I also went on to say. I had to make assumptions on what "RULE" you were talking or making inferrence to, only later did I realize you were specifically targeting the DP and CJ again....if that is in fact true and Im still not sure thats what you were talking about.

You cant Claim I answered, or gather from that that anything was Ok with me, because I wasnt sure what the hell EXACTLY was being asked, I was talking in generalities.

What I went on to say was.

"I cant imagine there is something "shady" or "underhanded" , but maybe Im wrong, if there was something that qualified as such , say an accidental change that made a whole bunch of peoples cars "technically illegal" and you went out just to get them DQ'd to move up the ladder and were able to. Then yeah Id say wrong is wrong, even though its "technically" right"

“How?” Come on - you are a smart guy - you know how

If you ARE talking about the new Combos, then no I dont see them as unfair, I see them as fast, but they are no more likley to win an eliminator than a slow combo, maybe thats my nievety in Class Racing. I dont see a heads up run often deciding the outcome of an eliminator.

I also dont see being MORE competitive than the next guy as HURTING Competiton, I see it as the OPPOSITE, I see it DRIVING Competiton, simple and matter of FACT, for you ? Maybe not, but for others ? with both the Index changes and the DP and CJ's . My BET is you are going to see a WHOLE LOT Of FAST as HELL AA and A cars WHEN they need to be. Does that mean by laying LOW they have been hurting competion ? The pendulum swings both ways.

What you would say is because someone can be MORE competitive than you, (or at least that SEEMS to be your perception just by being faster) then it would seem, to me at least, because someone is for the moment more competitive than another that somehow HURTS their competitors ? I doubt it, instead I think you will see them become faster and more competitive than previously IF they have a DESIRE to.

Thats like saying, well he runs faster because he has Nike's and I only have Chuck Taylor All Stars....then someone who runs faster barefoot comes along and throws that all out of wack and then what ? Hes hurting competiton because hes not wearing shoes ? (and its happened in Maraton running)

“If they can too then how is it hurting them ?” I guess the key words here are "they can too"

Correct, I think if in my example they choose not to with say Titanium springs, then sorry if I am more competitive because I choose to run them and take the risks of running them, then why shouldnt I benefit from running them ? Just because others choose not too?

I think the phrase here that applies is "if you can't take the heat - get out of the kitchen" or maybe a better one is "put up or shut up"

I so completley dont understand the context pr direction of this the only thing I can say is.....I completly dont understand the context or direction of this


I dont , and it wasnt my intent to flame or slam you if I did Im sorry I am trying to carry on an accurate and correct dialogue.

Cheers

Chris

[Dick Butler]

It has ALWAYS been this way in NHRA class racing. To many the challenge is "finding" this advantage then using it to be a winner. That is their thing. I can see them showing NHRA how far off it is. It is also easier for some than actually out working skilled racers.
I have always felt when these situations occur MANY are upset by its unfairness and a group who can afford to jump on it smile while they us the advantage. The group gets bigger and then NHRA "finds"this issue and slowly corrects it. Then the group with the cars gets upset that their advantage has been taken and just moves on again. Result is NHRA keeps the majjority of people upset about something all the time...
Other side. If they Over factored ,No ONe would desert their older cars, No new blood in the eliminations, no factory hand shakes.No special " advantages for the few.

[Greg Hill]

What challenge is there in taking a combination that is under rated by 75-125hp and making it run fast? That garners no respect from anybody. Anyone with lots of money can buy one of these new cars and fly. It doesn't take knowledge, it doesn't take hard work, it doesn't take trying 15 camshafts or 10 converters to pick up a few hundreths. It is immoral for NHRA to rate these crate motors at the hp ratings they have. I will let everyone on here decide whether it's immoral for racers to race them. I will say this if things don't change I think stock and possibly super stock will have substantially reduced numbers in the future.

NHRA changed the rules in stock to allow these cars to compete with no input from stock racers. They [NHRA] do not have our interests in mind. I guess the big question is why they would do something that drastically changes our class with no input from the people who support them? Do any of you think it has to do with money? For all of you Ford guys or Chrysler guys who think this is about brand loyalty, I would be saying the same thing about GM if they did it.

For the engine builders and people who we buy parts from, for the people who we buy trailers and motorhomes from , for the people who we buy racing fuel from, how do you feel about lower numbers of racers competing? How is it going to affect your business?

I really can't understand how long time stock or even super stock racers can condone this.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Greg Hill

What challenge is there in taking a combination that is under rated by 75-125hp and making it run fast? That garners no respect from anybody. Anyone with lots of money can buy one of these new cars and fly. It doesn't take knowledge, it doesn't take hard work, it doesn't take trying 15 camshafts or 10 converters to pick up a few hundreths. It is immoral for NHRA to rate these crate motors at the hp ratings they have. I will let everyone on here decide whether it's immoral for racers to race them. I will say this if things don't change I think stock and possibly super stock will have substantially reduced numbers in the future.

NHRA changed the rules in stock to allow these cars to compete with no input from stock racers. They [NHRA] do not have our interests in mind. I guess the big question is why they would do something that drastically changes our class with no input from the people who support them? Do any of you think it has to do with money? For all of you Ford guys or Chrysler guys who think this is about brand loyalty, I would be saying the same thing about GM if they did it.

For the engine builders and people who we buy parts from, for the people who we buy trailers and motorhomes from , for the people who we buy racing fuel from, how do you feel about lower numbers of racers competing? How is it going to affect your business?

I really can't understand how long time stock or even super stock racers can condone this.

Greg, Bruce Noland and I thumped that "Bible" over a year ago and nothing happened! Nothing is going to happen! The handfull of people that actually care about (what once was) Stock and SS are either too old or too disillusioned to do anything about it!
I don't blame ANY S/SS racer for buying a new combo because THAT is what NHRA wants because THAT is what will pay their bills (in the short term).
I personally don't believe that we will be around for me to "retire" from racing anyway.
Just be thankful that you decided to build popular body styles that you can restore, streetrod or sell to get some of your investment back.
If it sounds like I've given up well, let me just say that I don't believe that ANY NHRA racers will be treated with ANY respect as long as the people that are in charge in the "Ivory Tower" remain there. To them "It's just business".
Gee, maybe next time we (the racers) have a problem with a lane or the pits or a new ruling we should go "in mass" to the tower and explain to them that "It's just OUR business"!