Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by Rich Biebel

"You and I both know that a large percentage of the 60's to early 70's muscle cars were purpose built to be competetive in Stock. The street part was secondary."


That is totally untrue and not even remotely accurate in my opinion. I was a teenager during the musle car era and everyone was eager to see what was coming out from Detroit. If they had the money they could buy a car and do anything they wanted with it........yes many did race their cars but the vast majority were weekend warriors at best.....NOT serious racecars....Sales were driven by the magazines and the cars were affordable.......You could buy a brand new Muscle car for $3000....or LESS....Still a lot of money at the time but affordable.......It was just a matter of picking your options........The car companies had an "arms race" going and did it to sell cars......Winning on Sunday...selling on Monday........The top of the line cars helped sell the lower HP models......No way Detroit built these cars solely to win in Stock........Winning certainly didn't hurt sales.....Stock wasn't even where most of them ended up anyway.....Super Stock was where they were after the categorie was created in 1967.......SS/A to SS/J and SS/AA to SS/JA....
Almost all the cars I can think of were production vehicles readily available with very few "ringers".....

Read what I said again. I believe that I stated that they were built to be competetive. What you did with them and how you ordered them was up to you.

I'm not as old as you guys, but I have stacks of old reviews sitting around from that era. I would bet that 90% mention which Stock class the car will fit (especially Cars, Hot Rod, etc.).

[Ed Fernandez]

If you really want the hp figures fixed just change the eliminator to the old way of running on the national record.That would cut down the fields for a year but it would bring out the true potential of these under powered combos,both old and new.But we know that NHRA wouldn't have the balls to do that.
And Gump,look at the times the old muscle cars ran back then,granted they were on the bias ply street tires.But my present day 6 cylinder Gremlin could dust 90% of them,no matter how they came from the factory.Even alot of the current day fart pipe cars could do the same.
NHRA opened the barn doors a long time ago and it's probably too late to get the horse back in the corral.

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

I, yes I have been asked "not to feed the animals" but well, I have a very solid opinion on this I expressed it before and was well disagreed with.

When this thread Started, I HONESTLEY Believed there was an honest question, not a disquised reason to rant.

This has been flogged to death in this and 97 other threads.

Why didnt you title the thread "DP and CJ Ratings" ? Well....I have an idea few would have responded, why did you feel it neccesary to disquise your question and intent ?

I think (and would even if we DIDNT have a DP, yes really) that this is GOOD for Stock, and Superstock and the NHRA, the Manufactuers, the Fans, The Press....look at the balance sheet...its good for more than its bad for, unfortunatley the people who feel it bad are a pretty good crew that ive been fortunate to become a part of.

I, I do have empathy, Ive been there, I have been there in spades. So they werent cars...so what my investment, work and effort were no different, and the changes led to a pretty long hiatus from bikes.But I DO understand 100% , Now we have Wera, and AHRMA and well...its fun, its not "spotlight time" but if thats not youre reason for doing it (and it isnt mine) then its awesome.

Racing, well I think that a LOT of racers are looking at it wrong, they see racing PURLEY as a Competitive sport, and for THEM it is, but you have to understand RACERS themselves are only a Small, (small but irreplacable and important) part of Racing.

Racing , to the REST of the world is one of 2 things, a vertical market for sale of products to, OR ENTERTAINMENT....yes pure and simple ENTERTAINMENT.

Do you really think 98.5% of people in the stands, the ones that gate revenue comes from, the ones that the Sponsors are targeting, the ones that make National events even feasible from a cost offset, do you think they care 1 bit about keeping the new cars out or rated right ?

You feel you are the reason for racing and everything should cater to your perception of "fair play" but understand you (and I) are a small , understandably critical but small part.

Who do you think they are more interested in making happy, a small contingent of drivers or everyone else ?

I mean am I the only person that understands how the real adult grown up world works ? You live in it and adapt, or you perish its simple, very simple.

How many buggy whip makers do you know ?

[69ss/rs]

Originally Posted by CBS

amen...ED

Bruce....the pulleys were on there....I was getting ready for the CIC race.........except for radials.....

My point was that if Brian was in D...he would have dominated just like we did....till the final...then we would have had some fun....

Rock; anybody that knows Brian, knows that he always likes to show what he has. You guys on the other hand only run as fast as you have to. Funny how a car that was a 9.40&50 car last year is all of a sudden a 9.0 car now. Brians' combo is near the end of its' development life, where yours' is just getting started. You ran as fast in D as Brian did in C. So what do you think you would have ran with 200lbs out as a C car. We all know your car should be a C car now at the weight your running now. You ran neck and neck with Allen Wade last year, now he doesn't stand a chance of ever beating you, short of a red-light or you break.

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by drooze

I, yes I have been asked "not to feed the animals" but well, I have a very solid opinion on this I expressed it before and was well disagreed with.

When this thread Started, I HONESTLEY Believed there was an honest question, not a disquised reason to rant.

This has been flogged to death in this and 97 other threads.

Why didnt you title the thread "DP and CJ Ratings" ? Well....I have an idea few would have responded, why did you feel it neccesary to disquise your question and intent ?

I think (and would even if we DIDNT have a DP, yes really) that this is GOOD for Stock, and Superstock and the NHRA, the Manufactuers, the Fans, The Press....look at the balance sheet...its good for more than its bad for, unfortunatley the people who feel it bad are a pretty good crew that ive been fortunate to become a part of.

I, I do have empathy, Ive been there, I have been there in spades. So they werent cars...so what my investment, work and effort were no different, and the changes led to a pretty long hiatus from bikes.But I DO understand 100% , Now we have Wera, and AHRMA and well...its fun, its not "spotlight time" but if thats not youre reason for doing it (and it isnt mine) then its awesome.

Racing, well I think that a LOT of racers are looking at it wrong, they see racing PURLEY as a Competitive sport, and for THEM it is, but you have to understand RACERS themselves are only a Small, (small but irreplacable and important) part of Racing.

Racing , to the REST of the world is one of 2 things, a vertical market for sale of products to, OR ENTERTAINMENT....yes pure and simple ENTERTAINMENT.

Do you really think 98.5% of people in the stands, the ones that gate revenue comes from, the ones that the Sponsors are targeting, the ones that make National events even feasible from a cost offset, do you think they care 1 bit about keeping the new cars out or rated right ?

You feel you are the reason for racing and everything should cater to your perception of "fair play" but understand you (and I) are a small , understandably critical but small part.

Who do you think they are more interested in making happy, a small contingent of drivers or everyone else ?

I mean am I the only person that understands how the real adult grown up world works ? You live in it and adapt, or you perish its simple, very simple.

How many buggy whip makers do you know ?

Chris,I think the thing that rankles peoples nuts is the wildly miss factoring that's been allowed in the past few years.Look at some of the runs in the past few years.
An example is the record in T/SA.I set it in 2006 at 13.51 (1.19 under the then index of 14.70).Bob Shaw,who is the master of obscure combos,and I say that affectionately,reset
it at 13.27 (1.43 under).The current R/SA is now (1.49 under).The Q/SA is (1.48 under).
And there's more.These guys are flying and I'm sure they have worked on their cars,but
going about 1.50 under should trigger a red flag for NHRA to look at the factoring on these combos.
The examples I've used are all combos that most guys won't run and the only ones who have to contend with them are few,unlike the Mustangs and Challengers.
We're just now starting to get some grumbling from the H/SA guys over the recent runs by Jeffs car.With the release of the GM cars it will only get worse for those running the current older combos.If we all hit the lotto it wouldn't be a problem.The only thing is future races will look like a NASCAR race with 3 world cars in competition.
As I mentioned in another thread,running off the indexes for one year will reign in the combos that those running them chose to compete with.Otherwise they will never show what they have.
Now that's real life.

[Andys dad]

Look Drooze lighten up man - Stock eliminator racing is not the center of the universe.

I find this forum entertaining at times - You are over thinking it - I was not the one who brought up the DPs or the blown Fords – I asked a legitimate question not one of the whiners said the guys with the advantage should help change the issue (if there is one)

I have "Tapped Out" (UFC lingo) - I am going to sell my car and buy one of the new ones and so will others - the same guys who were able to make their cars go fast today will be on top of the heap when it is all said and done. The same engine builders who know what they are doing will be just as good with the new combinations.

Not sure just yet (lot of research to do) but I think one of the crate motor combos will be best – probably the 360 like Jeffs. The others will probably promote themselves right into Super Stock. I will have a wicked fast new car - I just hope Chevrolet does not jump in the water after I buy a Mopar (just can not buy a Ford).

Unfortunately - as you have said the same guys who win today will continue to win - Mark Faul, Jody and Toby Lang, David Rampy, Dan Fletcher, the Biondos, the Emmons, the Burtons, Lee Zane need I go on - sorry for those guys I left out.

Believe me, a lot of racers in these tough times do not want to spend the money - but some will - those of us who can not stop, are ready to show new racers that stock eliminator is more than money.

An H/SA as fast as my current C/SA ridiculous but I can hang.

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by Andys dad

Look Drooze lighten up man - Stock eliminator racing is not the center of the universe.

I find this forum entertaining at times - You are over thinking it - I was not the one who brought up the DPs or the blown Fords – I asked a legitimate question not one of the whiners said the guys with the advantage should help change the issue (if there is one)

I have "Tapped Out" (UFC lingo) - I am going to sell my car and buy one of the new ones and so will others - the same guys who were able to make their cars go fast today will be on top of the heap when it is all said and done. The same engine builders who know what they are doing will be just as good with the new combinations.

Not sure just yet (lot of research to do) but I think one of the crate motor combos will be best – probably the 360 like Jeffs. The others will probably promote themselves right into Super Stock. I will have a wicked fast new car - I just hope Chevrolet does not jump in the water after I buy a Mopar (just can not buy a Ford).

Unfortunately - as you have said the same guys who win today will continue to win - Mark Faul, Jody and Toby Lang, David Rampy, Dan Fletcher, the Biondos, the Emmons, the Burtons, Lee Zane need I go on - sorry for those guys I left out.

Believe me, a lot of racers in these tough times do not want to spend the money - but some will - those of us who can not stop, are ready to show new racers that stock eliminator is more than money.

An H/SA as fast as my current C/SA ridiculous but I can hang.

None of the guys you've mentioned have one of the let's say "favored cars".If they expect to keep winning they'll have to jump on board.
A friend of mine in Div 1 is a killer driver.He was running a s/b camaro in D/E Auto.He was on the verge of winning a few times,till he ran into a heads up with some very fast hombre's.Needless to say he's still win less.

[Toby Lang]

Originally Posted by drooze

When this thread Started, I HONESTLEY Believed there was an honest question, not a disquised reason to rant.

This has been flogged to death in this and 97 other threads.

Why didnt you title the thread "DP and CJ Ratings" ? Well....I have an idea few would have responded, why did you feel it neccesary to disquise your question and intent ?

Well, I knew exactly what he was referring to when I read his post.


-Toby

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Originally Posted by Andys dad

Look Drooze lighten up man - Stock eliminator racing is not the center of the universe.
.

Maybe blowing up another motor today made me grouchy.

I actually am looking forward to building something "different" ....something not for the respect of others but for my OWN satisfaction, thats one of the reasons well....Im still looking still thinking. The SS/GT 72 will happen but thats a quick and easy build (in comparison to the DP) maybe like 4 weeks if I was shopside for all of it.

But Im looking for something "off the hook" something bizzare...that fits me well.....Here are some of the cars I looked into, that are not in the Guides, Maserati TC (by Chrysler), Olds Aurora,

I missed my oppotunity last week with a cosworth Vega for 1200 bucks no rust....yes I really passed it up dumbass I am.... the head availablity scares me.

The truth is I am betting, I mean betting with anyting that there are probably 25-30 easy out of the park combos in the newer stuff people havent found or wrung out.

Look into a new Camaro ? Get or help get the 6 in the guide, look into the motor its an 11.3 :1 motor with Direct injection and VVT I will lay cash money that that car with the RIGHT fuel system is good for 2 under wherever they put it even at 300hp (the "advertised hp") Ditch the IRS get a good tranny behind it....But I guess Im just so excited about DI and VVT on the same engine.....I gotta get my hands on one...

I have 3 records to set before I get one (the thing about the old man buying it was a joke) but If / when I can set 3 records over the year THAT is my reward to myself. (and Im only 1/2 serious on that as well.....3 records no Im not that crazy that I think its no effort to do that, quite the opposite, hence if I do it, well I need to reward myself

Youre right Stock Elim isnt life or death far from it, it is enjoyment, and while Im new to it, I enjoy it, its always been some kinds of racing, and I guess that why I see things different Im "new" to S/SS so I dont have the same preconcieved notions or "history" with it.

Sooooo many people have mentioned the mean age of S/SS racers. I dont know why that is, honestly I think part of it are the lack of available newer cars for the 20-30 year olds to race, or relate to. Especially the ones who didnt grow up in a family with Gears in their DNA helix like so very many here.

The one thing in Drag racing I like, and I really dont like the brackets, the one thing I LOVE about Stock Eliminator and I havent even got to experience it, is if I meet another car of the same class its a heads up run.....THAT I will live for....THAT is Racing in my opinion....brackets ugh....but what other class in NHRA Racing can I end up in a heads up run that ISNT against a dial ? (and affordable ?)

[B Parker]

Drooze Your Dad must really love you and hate his money.