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Old 04-04-2010, 08:53 AM   #1
art leong
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

I tend to think the valve hit the piston after the problems with the rod started. Maybe the rod bolts stretched causing the hit.
If the bearing looked good but there was heat showing on the rod could side clearance have been a problem? The bearing should have been toast way before the rod showed heat.
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Old 04-04-2010, 01:55 PM   #2
Chris "drooze" Wertman
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

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Originally Posted by art leong View Post
I tend to think the valve hit the piston after the problems with the rod started. Maybe the rod bolts stretched causing the hit.
If the bearing looked good but there was heat showing on the rod could side clearance have been a problem? The bearing should have been toast way before the rod showed heat.
Side clearance looked good before chassis dyno....didnt look after but cant imagine that much lunch after engine dyno....looked good was checked , but I just dono, what makes 1 fail faster than another, clearance.........

The rod bolts stretchin could have cause a hit I guess, anything over 080 would have caused an exhaust hit, in the pics though, well for it to hit that square in the pocket it still had to be attached to the rod I think and it was a tdc when it happened, but streched bolts, certianly I think now, didnt before....or a shelled bearing maybe.

The force at which it hit causing the valve train damage....thats whats got me puzzled....
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Old 04-04-2010, 02:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

looking over the pictures it looks as if the bolts stretched and broke and the rest is damage from rotating mass ,,in one of the pictures of the bearing halfs it looks as if one of the tangs is missing or flat(spun bearing?)(could be caught up in the damage) ,,,one thing i would check of whats left of the 7 rods and pistons is if the big ends are still round ,,maybe the rpm is taxing the bolts or the bottom half of the rod cap is just flexing egg shape ,try to retorque the bolts to see if they will turn(they shouldnt)

i hate to see that damge on all the hard work and money that go's into this stuff

just my 2 cents gmonde
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:15 PM   #4
art leong
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

I think the rod bolt failure is the cause. Thats a heavy piston and rod. And when they change direction on the end of the exhaust stroke. There is a lot of force to make the change.
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Old 04-04-2010, 04:01 PM   #5
Chris "drooze" Wertman
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Default Ninjas Caused DP #24 Engine failure....

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I think the rod bolt failure is the cause. Thats a heavy piston and rod. And when they change direction on the end of the exhaust stroke. There is a lot of force to make the change.
Art....I now would agree 100%.....after what Alan, and some others have said, and thinking and rethinking it through, as well as getting the spec on the bolts that were in there, AND yesterday I didnt pull it down, the old man did I was busy with other things, he left 2 rods in and the bolts were in fact "loose" or as gmonde said, well 1 on each "turned" it shouldnt have, no doubts....

Im still a little at a loss as to how exactly I did the valve train damage but if it let loose at the very top of the stroke which it would have well I guess thats where the PTV contact occured....it must have "bounced" then off that valve as there is no other damage to the chamber or piston and headed down to the "rod chipper"

I looked very carefully at the bolt shears 1 is clean the other torn to a 45 degree peak across the plane.

So I may have ovrthought the living ****e out of it, but thats ok......"I get by with a little help from my friends".......and I mean that to all that a)Talked me through, down and over it. b)were constructive and helpful and that was every single response in this thread. every single one......

Thanks to all the CR people and I mean that....

I had only what I have seen before, and it was a "chicken and egg problem" and it didnt meet occams razor, this does and it shows to be true.

The rods are actually round (im suprised I had heard others engines after being run were not) AND the rods didnt break, the bolts did, much easier to find a suitible high tensile replacment than get a rod approved.

I have 2 sets of bolts here (good) I am shocked at how close they measure within .007 each ?!? across 16....maybe its a batch thing. BUT the bolts that came out of the engine ? I quit at 5, I could SEE differences....now I didnt measure them new....but that seems like a lot of variation....Ill bring em in a bag......

2 days ago my daughter warned me what caused it and I didnt listen....we were driving down the road past a stretch of wooded marshlands, she said "daddy I know what lives in there" she exclaimed....I said really, expecting to hear owls , turtles....NINJAS, they live in the TREES ! I almost wrecked laughing....She just turned 4....a bit later in the day something was amiss and she said matter of factly....Ninjas did it.....

You would THINK Hemi Ninjas wear orange and would be easy to spot.....hmmmmm......damm ninjas...

Thanks all.....see Im trainable And grateful.......

The egg came first it would look the the chicken smacked the valve...
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Old 04-04-2010, 04:08 PM   #6
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

See my next post....oops...
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Old 04-04-2010, 04:10 PM   #7
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

Wow.....that is a terrible looking mess of parts......

From what I see...it appears to be a major failure without a spun bearing or anything related to friction in the rods or crank.

Difficult to determine what broke first as most of it is collateral damage after the initial part failure....

Is it possible there was contact with something you overlooked at very high rpm? Like a rod hitting the cam or the block somewhere......it would easily explain the abrupt failure of the rod or rod bolt .......

Something either flat broke or something was hitting something and caused the breakage......

The parts don't look to be poor at all...... even the rods look fine and the bolts appear to be decent...maybe std material, and they are usually pretty fair.....

Anytime I have an event like that I get rid of the busted up stuff as quickly as possible.....I have this thing about blown up parts....I don't want their bad Karma to attach itself to any new parts I get.......SCRAP that mess ASAP......Learn what you can from it and JUNK that stuff......LOL
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Old 04-04-2010, 04:26 PM   #8
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

The pistons are not heavy, neither are the rods. You should try my stuff. And we go through the lights at over 7800 RPM.

STOP building another engine until you KNOW what went wrong. Trust me on this, I've been there. In your rush to get back to the track you will learn nothing, and spend thousands. I know, I did it. What you are going to do if you keep rushing is waste a year you could be learning, and put yourself 1-3 years behind. You will not catch up easily. Stock Eliminator is different than anything you've done.
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Old 04-04-2010, 04:58 PM   #9
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

6.1 Hemi.....= 370 cubes....What is the bore and stroke.....What is the main diameter and rod diameter....what is the rod length.....

4.055 3.580 370 8 6.200 12.6-1

Pretty straight forward looking engine specs.....not unlike a small block chev...with lots of compression.......Not your average street cars compression ratio!

Piston appears to be a Semi Hemi design...not a true Hemi.....

What is the cam lift......

385 370 .0135AB Dome .137 14.8cc 2100/1600 584/552 Beehive .039

Killer valve sizes and cam lifts.....easy to see why it runs as fast as it does....

What do the heads look like.....what is the intake and exahust port CC's and what do the heads flow.....port shapes? All this stuff says a lot about the usable rpm range of the engine.

If the heads are even reasonably decent.....it makes a lot of power.....and obviously they are from the numbers run by others.....


Doug Duell and Irv Johns have run some 9.80's at what weight?

370 cubes is pretty small to be running 9.80's at 132-133? I am guessing they are spinning them pretty hard to run those kinds of numbers....so my educated guesswork says lots of RPM might be normal for one of these.....
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Old 04-04-2010, 06:13 PM   #10
Chris "drooze" Wertman
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Default Re: DP #24 Engine failure....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich View Post
The pistons are not heavy, neither are the rods. You should try my stuff. And we go through the lights at over 7800 RPM.

STOP building another engine until you KNOW what went wrong. Trust me on this, I've been there. In your rush to get back to the track you will learn nothing, and spend thousands. I know, I did it. What you are going to do if you keep rushing is waste a year you could be learning, and put yourself 1-3 years behind. You will not catch up easily. Stock Eliminator is different than anything you've done.
Alan, thanks for the advice and under "normal" circumstances or if it was one of my camera's or a bike of mine alone I would wait.

BUT in our case time is not an option, its something neither me or my father are promised tommorow. We tend to learn on our feet.

And thanks to the directions, and advice here on CR and from people met here on CR alone (we me and the old man are kinda recluses because well we are busy) well....we do know what went wrong, the rod bolts failed. AND now we have a solution thanks to the "DP Confederation" as it were, Someone called and said someone just found an off the shelf answer from another brand L19 220kpsi...should be sufficient So I called them and they told me I checked Summit and Voila in stock...so tommorow a grueling 15 minute trip to Summit .... I will have to recheck the rod clearances as the spec is tighter on them and Im afraid of the crush, 63 vs 89 lbs torque....(and no thats not what Im going to install them by but) its enough of a baseline it could change my clearances possibly.

We work in parrelel tasks always me an the old man and were good at it togehter.....

Thats how we put the DP together in as short a time as we did, nothing painted in a corner everything happening at the same time.

AND we learn by doing, and failing and doing again, until we get it "right" we both him and I have a BAD habbit of losing interest at that point when we hit "top of the game" Thats what we both like and keeps us interested in racing of one form or another we have no illusion we will ever be the top of the chain.

We enjoy all of it, litterally all of it, we find ways to find enjoyment even in failure.

And were both too stupid to quit even when we should......so well do as we can and the cards have been dealt, well plug away with the determination it takes.

We learn by doing I guess is my point and we dont have the luxury because of circumstances to approach it in a ..... slower ? fashion, lest we may not have the chance at all.
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