Once again a bogus combination

[Jack McCarthy]

cmon GREG youre avoiding my question... can we race your new ford mini explorer ???

and by the way greg is right, but hell ive been bitching about rampant rule revisions and the AHFS that cannot work for 5 years and no one listens...

and yeah there has been "seas of change" in the past but damn this is a tidal wave that will wipe out all previous stockers in just 5 years... yeah we can still race them kenny, we just wont be allowed to win...

captain jack

[Greg Hill]

Originally Posted by Jack McCarthy

cmon GREG youre avoiding my question... can we race your new ford mini explorer ???

and by the way greg is right, but hell ive been bitching about rampant rule revisions and the AHFS that cannot work for 5 years and no one listens...

and yeah there has been "seas of change" in the past but damn this is a tidal wave that will wipe out all previous stockers in just 5 years... yeah we can still race them kenny, we just wont be allowed to win...

captain jack

Jack, all we've got to do is get the Flex in the guide and we're set. Andrew's mentioned this two or three times already. I'll get the Country Dog to find us a water car and with one of these crate motors it should be killer in GT. The first Ford Flex in Super Stock. Yea that's right for all you Ford apologists I own a new Ford Flex. This whole deal is not about brand it's about NHRA properly factoring these cars. If GM had a new Camaro with the fast burn crate motor rated at 275 I would be just as pissed.

[Stewart Way]

Greg
The rule for the "Special run must include a minimum run of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available." has been in the rulebook since 1998, not 2007 or 2008. This was not done for the DP and CJ as I think you stated. Could have been for the LS1 LT1 deal. Maybe Firehawks or some Hamburger special, but not the DP or CJ.

[Clay Arnett]

People keep wanting to compare back to the LT1 and LS1 cars. I also see someone thew the pinto rack into the mix and the mysterious 98 LT1. I agree the 98 LT1 never existed and the rack isn't right either but we're going straight and steering means nothing. To me the biggest difference is that you could go to any GM dealer and buy the same car off the lot and drive it home that was being raced. You can't do the same with these cars. Also the LT1 and LS1 cars were 50hp underrated I will agree. These cars are way more than 50hp underrated. The comparison of LT1/LS1 to DP/CJ is apples and oranges at this point. I don't hate the cars I actually like them but how anyone can see that this is right is beyond me.

[Dean Roberts]

Clay, we are not wanting to compare, we are comparing because it is just as blatant as the current cars everyone is crying about. But those crying about teh Cj and DP cars won't admit it. Any manufacturer will get away with whatever it can and it is the sanctioning bodies job to keep it all fair. It doesn't matter what the form of racing is, and it's found in all auto racing.

How could go to the dealer and buy a car that didn't exist? Which is the case with the '98 F-body with an LT1. Also, crossbreeding parts is illegal, yet the Pinto rack is legal in a GM car. How do you explain NHRA allowing that? It is a performance advantage because a Pinto rack is lighter than the stock GM setup and removing nose weight is worth a ton in a Stocker. We all want to know why the3 GM racers aren't screaming on the Internet for over a year about that?

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Dean Roberts

Clay, we are not wanting to compare, we are comparing because it is just as blatant as the current cars everyone is crying about. But those crying about teh Cj and DP cars won't admit it. Any manufacturer will get away with whatever it can and it is the sanctioning bodies job to keep it all fair. It doesn't matter what the form of racing is, and it's found in all auto racing.

How could go to the dealer and buy a car that didn't exist? Which is the case with the '98 F-body with an LT1. Also, crossbreeding parts is illegal, yet the Pinto rack is legal in a GM car. How do you explain NHRA allowing that? It is a performance advantage because a Pinto rack is lighter than the stock GM setup and removing nose weight is worth a ton in a Stocker. We all want to know why the3 GM racers aren't screaming on the Internet for over a year about that?

Yeah, you are "wanting to compare", you are not "comparing", because you are not making a valid comparison, by any stretch. A hand grenade is closer to an M-80 than one of these crate motor cars is to a 98 LT-1 F body.

Removing nose weight isn't worth a ton in a stocker. I'm not saying a Pinto rack should be legal.

The LT-1 was already a legal engine, certified by the EPA for street use in a production vehicle for sale to the general public. Yes, technically you could make a case that a 98 LT-1 F body is a "paper car".

So what is a car that is sold unassembled, no engine, no transmission, and no rear end? And classed with an engine or engines that are not certified for safety or emissions, or installed in a street driven production vehicle, ever? A "thin air car"?

What you REALLY want to know is why some people don't think two wrongs make a right.

I posted this in another thread, and I noticed that no one has ever addressed it:

If you want the new cars, why is it so important that they be in classes where they have such a huge advantage over other cars? Seriously, why is it necessary to just absolutely kill cars already racing? Why CAN'T they be in their own class? Why is it that it would be wrong for NHRA to learn a lesson from the past, and put these cars in a class by themselves, until the factors get reasonable, just like they eventually did with the FI cars? They'll go just as fast as they are now, with the exact same parts, and the exact same cash outlay. Why is it necessary to punish current combinations to add new cars? There would be little or no argument about any of this if the new cars had their own classes. Is it really necessary to give them 3 tenths to show, and 3 tenths to hold, over other racers, just to get them to race? Is it some sort of secret requirement that they be so dominant, just to get people to buy them and race them? Is that what we need to draw "new participants"? Do we REALLY need to do this just to get people to race? If we do, there's no hope for class racing, period. Not if this is what it will be reduced to.

[Wayne Kerr]

Let's just say that the CJ's and DP's have spoiled AA/S thru G/S and AA/SA thru G/SA
that's 16 classes correct?
Now I would like to ask if you compete in one of these classes?
Do you have the quickest car in the country in your respective class?
In my opinion there are 16 people in the country that have a legitimate complaint.
Does it matter whether you are beaten by a CJ or DP or just a faster car?

I needed to take some of the heat off of poor Jeff T.

Flame on.
See you at the races,
Wayne Kerr

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Wayne Kerr

Let's just say that the CJ's and DP's have spoiled AA/S thru G/S and AA/SA thru G/SA
that's 16 classes correct?
1. Now I would like to ask if you compete in one of these classes?
2. Do you have the quickest car in the country in your respective class?
3. In my opinion there are 16 people in the country that have a legitimate complaint.
4. Does it matter whether you are beaten by a CJ or DP or just a faster car?

I needed to take some of the heat off of poor Jeff T.

Flame on.
See you at the races,
Wayne Kerr

1. Yes, we do, 69 Camaro 427/425, A/SA and AA/SA.

2. No. Never claimed to. Still thrashing on it though.

3. That's your opinion. But, with respect, it does not consider other facts (see below).

4. There's a huge difference between being beaten by an established, correctly factored combination that someone has worked on for a few years to make run, and getting stomped by an improperly factored car that has the field covered by 5 tenths out of the box.

3a. The problem with your opinion is that most of the fastest cars in a given class do not travel everywhere, so people not in their division don't have to race them. Whereas these new cars are in every division. Example: Until the new cars came out, odds are the fastest AA/SA car was probably either DeArmond or Sorenson (with due respect to John Shaul and others). So AA/SA cars east of the Mississippi weren't likely to face the fastest AA/SA car in the country. But now they are likely to face a car far faster than either of those two. No doubt there are other very fast "older" AA/SA (and A/SA) cars in the country, Shaul, Meile, Calabro/Fasano, Couris, Pendarvis, Ficacci, DeFrank, Koppien, and a few others. But you could just about count all of those guys on two hands. If you add in the new cars being built, that figure more than doubles, and may even triple. That dramatically increases the odds of heads up races in those two classes, meaning the average guy in those classes with an older car is far more likely to run into a heads up race they can't win. Especially when the very fast older cars can't win in most cases facing a "new car", either.

It's not just about having the fastest car in the class in the country, it is at least just as much about having a reasonable chance to make a race of a heads up race, if you have a reasonably competitive car. If you've got a car that runs 1.0 or so under the new indexes, it's a powerful slap in the face to not have a chance in a heads up race in final eliminations. If you had a 1.0 under car, and got down to say 4 cars, and got beat by a new car that has you covered by 3 tenths, that's a pretty bitter pill to swallow if you've been working on your car and spending money on it for 5 or 10 years.


Flame? Why? And it is not the individual racers that anyone has a beef with, it's NHRA.

Greg, I completely understand where you are coming from...I think/know you are a really good driver and have been for awhile. I read the BS on here from other who get a lot from there daddy's and think it's totally wrong for them to even suggest otherwise. That being said, I will get to the subject of this post. A long time ago I started dreaming of the day when I could call myself a nhra class racer because itKs a fantastic community and I really enjoy the experience every time I get to participate with my father "Mike Fuller". Let me digress once again to the subject...

In my opinion NHRA HAS FAILED...They repeat their failure at luring people because they switch rules so often. Not only do they switch rules but, they do not enforce rules...Hence $5000 DOLLAR MANIFOLDS AND HEADS....

Lets be rational because stock eliminator is not! Without getting into the nitty gritty details I propose a community intervention. What would that be your job is to ask?

That intervention is abide by those rules....

The example and remedy is to quit or to pay the money to have these cj' and dp's torn down everywhere they go in my opinion.

I don't think its practical but' they need to be discriminated with NHRA'S ASSESTS AND TIME! There is glory and consequences..... I know the differnce...

I might not make sense on this forum to most but, i will impose the question....are you ready to fight the fight?

ANYWHO...I will make this sugestion one time only...discriminate! Because NHRA HAS DONE SO WITH YOU!

ANY COMMENTS OR HATE MAIL IS APPRECIATED....In honor of Dave Young...

[Monte Howard]

Some of you want to argue about the 98 LT-1 and Rack & Pinion,Come on,That is small compared to the lastest.

Rack and Pinion / LT-1,I would trade that for the Nice little open rules to do what ever you like to the rear suspension,nice little Intake and Oil Pan(Milodon).

I would also trade that Rack and Pinion 98 LT-1 deal for a BLOWER.

My Stocker was crushed for years by the new Camaro's and Firebird's.

Now it will be by the DP.

I was told years ago by NHRA Deal with it.

New cars are neat,but not as neat as the old muscle cars and what NHRA is doing is wrong.

The thing I love about Stock and Super Stock is going to the U.S Nationals and having a chance to win, even a chance to beat the big HITTERS,NHRA is taking that away from alot of us now.

Going to the Nationals and watching Paul Adams and Jimmy Bridges Heads-UP,Watching all the Big Block Mopar's and Chevy's go at it in A/SA -C/SA
Thats what life is all about my friends and I hope they dont ruin that.