Lack of integrity

[Greg Hill]

Originally Posted by Chuck Beach

There is no such thing as a level playing field in this sport. Never has been. First example would be the SS/AHemi's at Indy this year, they all are pretty much the same, right, wrong ... Westscott Jr. had the field coverd by a ten and 1/2 until he broke. Now must good drivers feel they can make up a tenth on the tree but a ten and 1/2 is a stretch especially because Jr. is a good driver. Second example would be the fact that 3 DP's did not make the cut at Indy. Seems to me that there are people on this forum that think these cars are so underrated all you have to do is show up and your 1.10 under. Lets face it, if you lose you lose, whether it be by a tenth and 1/2, 2 tenths or six tenths, the time slip says the same thing. Same thing with a red light, if you are -.001 red it might as well be - .500 red, you still lose. Here is another example I will use because I know this combo, these cars all use the same engine combination ... James Findell qualifies #28 with his 340 at -.956 under, Bob Ackers is #134 at -.733 under, Dale Findell is #142 at - .716 under, Paula Cotten is number #150 at - .702 under. Now all of these cars can fit the same class even though they were in different classes at Indy. James has them covered by over 2 tenths. Doesn't seem level to me. Does this mean that the slower cars had problems, didn't work hard enough on their combos, didn't spend enough money, James has an unfair advantage, is he underfactored, no wait, they all run the same combo. I am sure there are other examples.

Just sayin' .... stock and super stock is not a socialist class, it is a performance class ... period. Some have it, some don't ...

The 350 went from 275 NHRA hp in 1993 to 346 hp in April 2010. hmmmm 17 yrs.
The 350 went from 285 NHRA hp in 1997 to 346 hp in January 2010. hummm 13 yrs.
The 346 went from 305 NHRA hp in 2001 to 373 hp in January 2010. hummm 9 yrs.

The 6.1 hemi went from 385 NHRA hp in 2009 to 399 hp in July of 2010. These cars have only been raced over the last 2 years.

The 5.7 hemi went from 305 NHRA hp in 2009 to 326 hp in September of 2010. This combo has only been raced for less than a year.

The 360 went from 275 NHRA hp in 2009 to 284 hp in September of 2010. This combo has only been raced this year.

Looks like the new combo still has a few years to go to be equal with their counter part as far as getting to their 'real hp' ...

Just sayin ...

Chuck a level playing field is not a guarantee that everyone with the same combination is going to run the same. People who are smarter, work harder, and spend more money are going to be faster. A level playing field is the idea that everyone who works hard, spends money and is smart about their car should have an a relatively equal chance to be successful. One of the new Challengers went 10 flat in E/Sa, my best run in my car is 10.62. It wouldn't matter if I had Warren Johnson building my motors with Warren Buffet's money I couldn't get within 5 tenths of that car.

How can anyone condone these bogus new cars with their obvious bogus hp ratings is beyond my comprehension. Ask John Shaul how he feels? How about the fact that Pendarvis went 9.70 in C/SA at Indy and the B/SA final between DeFrank and Hawk was something like 10.24 to 10.26. How about a decent A/SA like Larry Hill that gets out run by 5 tenths by a new Mustang. I had to run the Firebirds and Camaros with the LT1's and LS1's for years before enough pressure from racers forced NHRA to put them in their own class. I don't think we should have to wait years for them to be put in the right classes. A lot of us will be long gone from racing before the AHFS corrects the problem. How would you feel if one of the 5.9 Challenger's out ran you by 5 tenths heads up and they would? How fast do you think these cars are going to be when they start to get the converters, cam, headers and all the rest worked out?

[Chuck Beach]

You guys just kill me ... oh well, Greg they already can, I have 3 classes I can move around in to avoid them, I did not have that same opportunity when the LT1's and LS1's came out, we could choose 2 classes. dgal, what is 'inane' ? and no I am not kidding anyone ..

I think you have to remember there were a lot more Camaros and Firebirds built back then because racers could afford them, hence enough cars to put them into another class. Not sure there will be that many more DP's & CJ's, not many racers can afford one.

Hey Captain Jack, doesn't Bob Shaw have your combo covered by 3 or 4 tenths? Where is the controversy on that combo. I think fair is fair and it should cover all classes, not just the top of the heap ..

[Jack McCarthy]

thanks for remembering chuck... yeah i got the screws 4 years ago when bob built the oldsmocaddy... with the olds motor rated at 35hp less in the caddy than it is in an olds. no one was upset or running to defend the "old school" car i was just S.O.L. ! i can never outrun the caddy... maybe - just maybe with another (that will make 4) AHFS hit he will go away to T/SA

however i will point out a few differences in the situation

1. bob found a car that was actually built and had been in the book for 20 years, GM did not put a paper car into my class

2. bob has not been helped or encouraged by GM to kick my ***

3. bob is a great racer and a nice guy, if someone was gonna end my reign as U/SA hitter at least it was bob... not some prick with a couple of million dollars and a Ford racing jacket.

captain jack

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by Jack McCarthy

thanks for remembering chuck... yeah i got the screws 4 years ago when bob built the oldsmocaddy... with the olds motor rated at 35hp less in the caddy than it is in an olds. no one was upset or running to defend the "old school" car i was just S.O.L. ! i can never outrun the caddy... maybe - just maybe with another (that will make 4) AHFS hit he will go away to T/SA

however i will point out a few differences in the situation

1. bob found a car that was actually built and had been in the book for 20 years, GM did not put a paper car into my class

2. bob has not been helped or encouraged by GM to kick my ***

3. bob is a great racer and a nice guy, if someone was gonna end my reign as U/SA hitter at least it was bob... not some prick with a couple of million dollars and a Ford racing jacket.

captain jack

Aw Jeez Jack.Now you probably pissedoff Fomoco,and there going to release a 220CI
blown injected nitrous assisted camaro rated at 140 HP to run Q-U/SA.We're toast.
Ah, maybe all of us but Billy.He might still have a trick up his sleeve.

[RULER]

Well said Captian Jack, just add mopar jacket and it's covered!!!!

[Dean Roberts]

Jack, your response is bitter and you missed some important facts so I will fill in the blanks.

1. bob found a car that was actually built and had been in the book for 20 years, GM did not put a paper car into my class

All cars in the guide are built, at least 50 of them. There have been GM paper cars. Ford and Dodge did, in fact, build these cars by the letter of the NHRA rules to fit in Stock, and anyone had a chance to get one, or you can build your own. Who cars how long they have been around? An underfactored car is just that, and it doesn't matter which class or how long it's been hiding in the books. I'm not arguing that they are underrated.

2. bob has not been helped or encouraged by GM to kick my ***

Only because it he runs cars that no one cares about. He picked a class to take advantage of the system, good for him. BTW, Ford and Dodge did the same thing. If you don't think GM was thrilled about racers kicking butt with underrated LT and LS cars you are misinformed or one-sided.

3. bob is a great racer and a nice guy, if someone was gonna end my reign as U/SA hitter at least it was bob... not some prick with a couple of million dollars and a Ford racing jacket.

So someone is a prick because they have done well in life and have money to spend? Have you been to an NHRA race lately and seen the rigs, cars and paint jobs? That would account for 3/4 of the sportsman pits, so 3/4 of the racers are pricks? I think there are a lot of DP and CJ racers who love the brands and want to be a part of history. They may not understand NHRA racing they way you do, but they spent the money and want to run the balls off these cars. Wasn't that the original intent of the class?

[Dgal]

Dean,

There have never been any cars in the guide that resemble what Ford and Dodge are putting on the tracks that didn't fall into Factory Experimental or something similar. To compare these cars to what has been in the guide under normal circumstances is disingenuous.

Don

[Alan Roehrich]

You forgot one thing, Dean. The NHRA Stock Eliminator rules were rewritten to allow cars that were never certified for production, never met any federal or state emissions or safety standards, and even some that were never even assembled by the factory, ever.

We now have some cars in Stock Eliminator that have engines that the OEM's never put in any car, ever.

That is something entirely different than even any of the previous "paper cars", GM, Ford, or Chrysler. Go ahead and bring up the 98 LT-1 F body. At least the LT-1 was installed by the factory and sold to the public in some car, in some year, at some time. At least it was emissions certified for sale and use on public roads.

What's next, cars that were never sold to the public in any form?After all, they're already listing package cars that never even ran, and won't even move under their own power when you buy them, in the guide.

No matter what else happens, Stock Eliminator has been changed radically. There is now a loophole that you could drive anything through, with a little help from an OEM.

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by Dean Roberts

Jack, your response is bitter and you missed some important facts so I will fill in the blanks.

1. bob found a car that was actually built and had been in the book for 20 years, GM did not put a paper car into my class

All cars in the guide are built, at least 50 of them. There have been GM paper cars. Ford and Dodge did, in fact, build these cars by the letter of the NHRA rules to fit in Stock, and anyone had a chance to get one, or you can build your own. Who cars how long they have been around? An underfactored car is just that, and it doesn't matter which class or how long it's been hiding in the books. I'm not arguing that they are underrated.

2. bob has not been helped or encouraged by GM to kick my ***

Only because it he runs cars that no one cares about. He picked a class to take advantage of the system, good for him. BTW, Ford and Dodge did the same thing. If you don't think GM was thrilled about racers kicking butt with underrated LT and LS cars you are misinformed or one-sided.

3. bob is a great racer and a nice guy, if someone was gonna end my reign as U/SA hitter at least it was bob... not some prick with a couple of million dollars and a Ford racing jacket.

So someone is a prick because they have done well in life and have money to spend? Have you been to an NHRA race lately and seen the rigs, cars and paint jobs? That would account for 3/4 of the sportsman pits, so 3/4 of the racers are pricks? I think there are a lot of DP and CJ racers who love the brands and want to be a part of history. They may not understand NHRA racing they way you do, but they spent the money and want to run the balls off these cars. Wasn't that the original intent of the class?

I agree that Bob is a great racer and like Billy Ness and Neil Smedley, they are good at looking at combinations.
The truth is there is a different angle to the inception of Bob's combination that only a few know.

Bob's combination, although the car was manufactured with the EFI Oldsmobile engine, was never in the books from the beginning. Neil Smedley is the person that came up with the possibilities of how such combination would run in Stock.

I did some research on the combination and got all the data sheets from the engineers at Cadillac Motorsports at the time. They were still involved in drag racing with the FWD cars. During a discussion with Bob Dennis, he said he would like to explore this combination in SS class. I provided Bob with copies of the documents and we both submitted the information to NHRA.

NHRA did not approve the engine combination and said it was too old of an engine to be approved. Even Travis said the same thing on this board when this subject was brought up on this board many years ago.

One year later, Randy Mans approached me as asked me if I still had the data because he had talked to his division director and also Bob Lang and they told him they would take a look at it for approval. Randy got the information and later on, the engine combination was added to the books. Neil Smedley also talked to Bob about this combination and I consider Neil the person that came up with the combination.

So, in a nutshell, it is who you know at NHRA to get things approved.

As regards to those that spend money in their cars, there are many successful racers outside of this sport and have the money to do and build whatever they please. Many of you would be doing the same if you had the resources. Therefore, I consider criticism of the way their spend their money on their cars out of context.