What would you do with the current CJ and DP car situation?

[NewHemi]

I never said that the cars were "properly factored" from the start.
I did say that a car that started about a month ago at 305 HP, and now is at 348 HP would seem to indicate that, at least in the case of the 5.7 DP Challenger that the AHFS works at least a little bit.

And unless you know a way to turn back the clock, I don't think all of the whining and complaining is going to change the initial factors one bit.

I also absolutely agreed that the cars need their own class, and even told you about talks that were held clear back last year about getting these cars into one, and my thoughts that the best thing for these cars would be to be put into their own class.

Back to the tip of what iceberg? As for complaining about cars and factors that haven't even been released yet, what good is that? What can you base your complaints about those yet to be produced and yet to be factored cars upon? Do you just assume that the NHRA is out to screw you, or do you have inside info on the factors there? If you have specifics, let's talk about it. If not, then why don't we wait until there is some pain, before we start bleeding.

Back to the basics of the discussion.

Should these cars be in a separate class? YES!

Now, I have already agreed on literally every one of your truly salient points. (Although I may not agree that I was somehow disingenuous in my attitude about this situation. I still don't think anything is going to change just by complaining about it. I even tried by having talks behind the scenes with parties involved, and that hasn't done a lot of good lately.)

So what good has the poll, or all of this talk done?

Let me know when it really does more than just make you feel better to get it off your chest. And if that is all it does, then just keep doing what you need to do.

It makes no sense to continue to tell each other how we feel, since you apparently don't seem to hear me, and although I have heard you, and understand your position, I still don't see any real good situation changing result from the discussion at this point.

David
The New Hemi Guy

[Dgal]

Originally Posted by NewHemi

I never said that the cars were "properly factored" from the start.
I did say that a car that started a couple of months ago at 305 HP and now is 348HP would indicate that, at least in the case of the 5.7 DP Challenger would indicate that AHFS works a little.

And unless you know a way to turn back the clock, I don't think all of the whining and complaining is going to change the initial factors one bit.

And I absolutely agreed, and even told you about talks that were held clear back last year about getting these cars into, and that the best thing was for these cars to be put into their own class.

Back to the tip of what iceberg? As for complaining about cars and factors that haven't even been released yet, what good is that? What can you base your complaints about those yet to be produced and factored cars upon? Do you just assume that the NHRA is out to screw you, or do you have inside info on the factors there? If you have specifics, let's talk about it. If not, then why don't we wait until there is some pain, before we start bleeding.

Back to the basics of the discussion.

Should these cars be in a separate class? YES!

I have agreed on literally every one of your truly salient points.

Although I may not agree that I was somehow disingenuous in my attitude about this situation. I still don't think anything is going to change just by complaining about it. I even tried by having talks behind the scenes with parties involved, and that hasn't done a lot of good lately. So how will whining publicly change it?

So what good has the poll, or all of this talk done?

Let me know when it really does more than just make you feel better to get it off your chest. And if that is all it does, then just keep doing what you need to do.

David
The New Hemi Guy

Well, you are backing off your "it is working" to "works a little." But this is from your previous post. "So, for those who were thinking it would take too long to get the auto hp system to work, you were wrong at least on the Drag Paks." It has taken too long and they are not there, yet. And only one of them (the 5.7) is within sight.

What good is complaining about cars that haven't been released yet? We were complaining about these before they were released and guess what, we were right. The cars are going to be released and they are not Stock Eliminator cars! They are Factory Experimental Cars! Until they get them in the proper class then the complaints are justified. I know you agree that they should be in their own class, but you don't think I have the right to complain about their current categorization then you are flat wrong.

What do I base the complaints on? Refer back to the previous paragraph and the fact that these motors are cherry picked parts from the perfomance catalog and not from ANY car that has been registered for the street. Factory experiments.

NHRA out to screw me? Don't know about that, but they sure put their interests before the sportsmen. Can you show any differently? I don't have any inside info on the factors, but they have repeatedly factored these combos so low it is comical. There is a pattern if you haven't noticed.

Why wait? You know the pain is there until they are put in their own class (which is about to happen). You keep asking why I have a problem with these future combos without know the HP factor. The HP factor isn't the real problem. The real problem is that these are not Stock cars, they are experiments and there is no way in Hades that a stock combo can compete with Comp Eliminator pieces or power adders with any amount of money, time, and development. There are physics involved here.

How does "whining" as you call it do any good. Don't fool yourself into thinking we are in a vacuum here with our comments. The public comments in these forums do make their way back to Glendora and they do help the cause.

It may be before your internet time, but there was a popular forum called Home Theater.com. At that time there was a product introduced by Circuit City called DIVX. This was a competing format to the newly introduced DVDs. Basically, DIVX was more leasing the movies where DVDs were ownership. The choices were fine since many people would watch a movie maybe once or twice which would make the DIVX format much more cost effective. No problem with choices, so what's the rub?

Well....Circuit City had lobbied the studios not to release their movies on DVD and only do it on DIVX. Disney agreed to Circuit City's pressure and would only release their movies on this pay per view format. This was about the time that Lion King was coming out. Can you imagine how many times your kid or grandkid would want to watch a partial movie of Lion King? Pony up $4.95 for the first 48 hours and then $3 for every 48 hour time slot after that. This would have been a huge money maker for DIVX and the studios! Warner Bros wouldn't cave into Circuit City along with a couple of others, but the majority of the studios could see how this would be a gold mine.

Back to the public "whining." The studios would monitor this website in order to get the "pulse" of the general public about DIVX. The hard core enthusiast were on this website like they are here (see a pattern?). We hammered Circuit City and it was having an effect. CC started putting plants (DIVX employees) on the website to make it appear that DIVX wasn't so bad and there was a lot of support for the format. Problem was that we had a plant of our own within DIVX and we knew what was they were doing. Slowly, but surely we exposed each of the plants on the forums. They studios could see the true feeling of the buying public and started releasing their titles on both formats. That was all we asked. Just give us the choice to buy or lease.

It didn't take long for the DIVX format to fail because nobody really liked the idea of variable costs vs. fixed costs for your movie library. The DIVX fiasco cost CC over a billion dollars to shut down. Continuing bad decisions put them into bankruptcy.

This was about 15 years ago. You have to believe that companies realize that the internet can potentially break you if you are not careful. So this public "whining" that you discount is not discounted by these companies or even the NHRA.

Don

[MikeFicacci]

All three DP combos still need horsepower. Probably about 40 for the 6.1, 50 for the 5.7, and god help us all when someone fast builds a 5.9 and goes 10.0 cause that thing needs about 80 and presently no one from H up is safe.

[NewHemi]

Originally Posted by Dgal

Well, you are backing off your "it is working" to "works a little." But this is from your previous post. "So, for those who were thinking it would take too long to get the auto hp system to work, you were wrong at least on the Drag Paks." It has taken too long and they are not there, yet. And only one of them (the 5.7) is within sight.

What good is complaining about cars that haven't been released yet? We were complaining about these before they were released and guess what, we were right. The cars are going to be released and they are not Stock Eliminator cars! They are Factory Experimental Cars! Until they get them in the proper class then the complaints are justified. I know you agree that they should be in their own class, but you don't think I have the right to complain about their current categorization then you are flat wrong.

What do I base the complaints on? Refer back to the previous paragraph and the fact that these motors are cherry picked parts from the perfomance catalog and not from ANY car that has been registered for the street. Factory experiments.

NHRA out to screw me? Don't know about that, but they sure put their interests before the sportsmen. Can you show any differently? I don't have any inside info on the factors, but they have repeatedly factored these combos so low it is comical. There is a pattern if you haven't noticed.

Why wait? You know the pain is there until they are put in their own class (which is about to happen). You keep asking why I have a problem with these future combos without know the HP factor. The HP factor isn't the real problem. The real problem is that these are not Stock cars, they are experiments and there is no way in Hades that a stock combo can compete with Comp Eliminator pieces or power adders with any amount of money, time, and development. There are physics involved here.

How does "whining" as you call it do any good. Don't fool yourself into thinking we are in a vacuum here with our comments. The public comments in these forums do make their way back to Glendora and they do help the cause.

It may be before your internet time, but there was a popular forum called Home Theater.com. At that time there was a product introduced by Circuit City called DIVX. This was a competing format to the newly introduced DVDs. Basically, DIVX was more leasing the movies where DVDs were ownership. The choices were fine since many people would watch a movie maybe once or twice which would make the DIVX format much more cost effective. No problem with choices, so what's the rub?

Well....Circuit City had lobbied the studios not to release their movies on DVD and only do it on DIVX. Disney agreed to Circuit City's pressure and would only release their movies on this pay per view format. This was about the time that Lion King was coming out. Can you imagine how many times your kid or grandkid would want to watch a partial movie of Lion King? Pony up $4.95 for the first 48 hours and then $3 for every 48 hour time slot after that. This would have been a huge money maker for DIVX and the studios! Warner Bros wouldn't cave into Circuit City along with a couple of others, but the majority of the studios could see how this would be a gold mine.

Back to the public "whining." The studios would monitor this website in order to get the "pulse" of the general public about DIVX. The hard core enthusiast were on this website like they are here (see a pattern?). We hammered Circuit City and it was having an effect. CC started putting plants (DIVX employees) on the website to make it appear that DIVX wasn't so bad and there was a lot of support for the format. Problem was that we had a plant of our own within DIVX and we knew what was they were doing. Slowly, but surely we exposed each of the plants on the forums. They studios could see the true feeling of the buying public and started releasing their titles on both formats. That was all we asked. Just give us the choice to buy or lease.

It didn't take long for the DIVX format to fail because nobody really liked the idea of variable costs vs. fixed costs for your movie library. The DIVX fiasco cost CC over a billion dollars to shut down. Continuing bad decisions put them into bankruptcy.

This was about 15 years ago. You have to believe that companies realize that the internet can potentially break you if you are not careful. So this public "whining" that you discount is not discounted by these companies or even the NHRA.

Don

Works a little, or works........ the "works" part is still true. Nice nit picking there on a line that didnt change the meaning of what was said. Are the new cars getting horsepower added? YES! Is it happening fast enough for you, apparently not. But that doesn't mean it isn't working.

And as for anything about something being before my Internet time (Not sure why you think how long I have been on the internet somehow helps with your point. Or how it might undermine mine.) But for your information, NOTHING on the Internet was before my Internet time. I was on the Internet before the "World WIde Web" www even came about: can you say telnet, or gopher, and know how they even relate to the Internet. If you simply wish to discount me and any of my thoughts about anything, then continue to throw out red herrings that don't relate to drag racing, or the NHRA in any way, but simply shows that in one unrelated industry, an "unfairness" was averted by the market place.

Clue for you: The world isn't always fair.

And once again, if you wish to continue to rail against the powers that be, then so be it.

It hasn't changed anything that wouldn't have changed anyway. And in the future, when new cars get factored, it won't change anything then either.

Oh, BTW thanks for the report on the state of the video formats. I will put a copy of that on my shop wall, so whenever anyone is talking cars and I dont agree, and I want to change the subject, or just cloud up the issue, I will have it covered.

David
The New Hemi Guy

[Dgal]

Originally Posted by NewHemi

Works a little, or works........ the "works" part is still true. Nice nit picking there on a line that didnt change the meaning of what was said. Are the new cars getting horsepower added? YES! Is it happening fast enough for you, apparently not. But that doesn't mean it isn't working.

And as for anything about something being before my Internet time (Not sure why you think how long I have been on the internet somehow helps with your point. Or how it might undermine mine.) But for your information, NOTHING on the Internet was before my Internet time. I was on the Internet before the "World WIde Web" www even came about: can you say telnet, or gopher, and know how they even relate to the Internet. If you simply wish to discount me and any of my thoughts about anything, then continue to throw out red herrings that don't relate to drag racing, or the NHRA in any way, but simply shows that in one unrelated industry, an "unfairness" was averted by the market place.

Clue for you: The world isn't always fair.

And once again, if you wish to continue to rail against the powers that be, then so be it.

It hasn't changed anything that wouldn't have changed anyway. And in the future, when new cars get factored, it won't change anything then either.

Oh, BTW thanks for the report on the state of the video formats. I will put a copy of that on my shop wall, so whenever anyone is talking cars and I dont agree, and I want to change the subject, or just cloud up the issue, I will have it covered.

David
The New Hemi Guy

David,

Nice dancing around with the ad hominem. My part about the video formats wasn't changing the subject in the least. It was answering your challenge about the "public whining" having no effect.

If the world isn't fair comment the best you can do then you have drifted away from a logical, salient discussion towards an insignficant one.

Your final comment about works a little is a significant difference from your original post that the AHFS worked at least in the Drag Paks case. The game isn't over and it won't be until these factory experimental race cars are racing other factory experimental race cars in a "fair fight." Yeah the world isn't fair, but at least we should be able to compete on a level playing field. That is, of course, you feel the need to bring the nuclear bomb to a knife fight in order to compete properly.

I for one wouldn't get any satisfaction out of that.

Don

[Harry 6674]

Originally Posted by Dgal

David,

Nice dancing around with the ad hominem. My part about the video formats wasn't changing the subject in the least. It was answering your challenge about the "public whining" having no effect.

If the world isn't fair comment the best you can do then you have drifted away from a logical, salient discussion towards an insignficant one.

Your final comment about works a little is a significant difference from your original post that the AHFS worked at least in the Drag Paks case. The game isn't over and it won't be until these factory experimental race cars are racing other factory experimental race cars in a "fair fight." Yeah the world isn't fair, but at least we should be able to compete on a level playing field. That is, of course, you feel the need to bring the nuclear bomb to a knife fight in order to compete properly.

I for one wouldn't get any satisfaction out of that.

Don

Don now that you know what the weapon of choice is. Maybe you should consider trading your knife for at least a six shooter. Its probably not going to get any easier.

[dwydendorf]

Originally Posted by Dgal

Well, you are backing off your "it is working" to "works a little." But this is from your previous post. "So, for those who were thinking it would take too long to get the auto hp system to work, you were wrong at least on the Drag Paks." It has taken too long and they are not there, yet. And only one of them (the 5.7) is within sight.

What good is complaining about cars that haven't been released yet? We were complaining about these before they were released and guess what, we were right. The cars are going to be released and they are not Stock Eliminator cars! They are Factory Experimental Cars! Until they get them in the proper class then the complaints are justified. I know you agree that they should be in their own class, but you don't think I have the right to complain about their current categorization then you are flat wrong.

What do I base the complaints on? Refer back to the previous paragraph and the fact that these motors are cherry picked parts from the perfomance catalog and not from ANY car that has been registered for the street. Factory experiments.

NHRA out to screw me? Don't know about that, but they sure put their interests before the sportsmen. Can you show any differently? I don't have any inside info on the factors, but they have repeatedly factored these combos so low it is comical. There is a pattern if you haven't noticed.

Why wait? You know the pain is there until they are put in their own class (which is about to happen). You keep asking why I have a problem with these future combos without know the HP factor. The HP factor isn't the real problem. The real problem is that these are not Stock cars, they are experiments and there is no way in Hades that a stock combo can compete with Comp Eliminator pieces or power adders with any amount of money, time, and development. There are physics involved here.

How does "whining" as you call it do any good. Don't fool yourself into thinking we are in a vacuum here with our comments. The public comments in these forums do make their way back to Glendora and they do help the cause.

It may be before your internet time, but there was a popular forum called Home Theater.com. At that time there was a product introduced by Circuit City called DIVX. This was a competing format to the newly introduced DVDs. Basically, DIVX was more leasing the movies where DVDs were ownership. The choices were fine since many people would watch a movie maybe once or twice which would make the DIVX format much more cost effective. No problem with choices, so what's the rub?

Well....Circuit City had lobbied the studios not to release their movies on DVD and only do it on DIVX. Disney agreed to Circuit City's pressure and would only release their movies on this pay per view format. This was about the time that Lion King was coming out. Can you imagine how many times your kid or grandkid would want to watch a partial movie of Lion King? Pony up $4.95 for the first 48 hours and then $3 for every 48 hour time slot after that. This would have been a huge money maker for DIVX and the studios! Warner Bros wouldn't cave into Circuit City along with a couple of others, but the majority of the studios could see how this would be a gold mine.

Back to the public "whining." The studios would monitor this website in order to get the "pulse" of the general public about DIVX. The hard core enthusiast were on this website like they are here (see a pattern?). We hammered Circuit City and it was having an effect. CC started putting plants (DIVX employees) on the website to make it appear that DIVX wasn't so bad and there was a lot of support for the format. Problem was that we had a plant of our own within DIVX and we knew what was they were doing. Slowly, but surely we exposed each of the plants on the forums. They studios could see the true feeling of the buying public and started releasing their titles on both formats. That was all we asked. Just give us the choice to buy or lease.

It didn't take long for the DIVX format to fail because nobody really liked the idea of variable costs vs. fixed costs for your movie library. The DIVX fiasco cost CC over a billion dollars to shut down. Continuing bad decisions put them into bankruptcy.

This was about 15 years ago. You have to believe that companies realize that the internet can potentially break you if you are not careful. So this public "whining" that you discount is not discounted by these companies or even the NHRA.

Don

One of the things I think you fail to realize is the way that NHRA works. It doesn't necessarily work the same as all big businesses work. First, NHRA always takes care of its biggest customers. What do Roy Hill, Jeg Coughlin, J.C. Beattie and Jim Defrank have in common? They all have either Drag Pak or Cobra Jets in their race stables and their family businesses are advertisers in National Dragster. They also show up at some of the NHRA national events and race. Do you think that your opinion matters to NHRA more than the previouslty mentioned racers? Second, do you think your opinion matters more to NHRA than the opinion of Chrysler Or Ford? Although I have been accused of not using my name in my posts, my posts have my first initial with my last name, do you think that NHRA cares about someone who they don't probably even know? They would probably tell you that if you don't like the way things are build one of the new cars. If you say you can't afford to do that then they would say gee, thats too bad because like I said earlier NHRA takes care of its best customers and You probably don't have enough money to be one of their best customers. Are you starting to understand why you are preaching to an empty Church?

[Dgal]

Originally Posted by dwydendorf

One of the things I think you fail to realize is the way that NHRA works. It doesn't necessarily work the same as all big businesses work. First, NHRA always takes care of its biggest customers. What do Roy Hill, Jeg Coughlin, J.C. Beattie and Jim Defrank have in common? They all have either Drag Pak or Cobra Jets in their race stables and their family businesses are advertisers in National Dragster. They also show up at some of the NHRA national events and race. Do you think that your opinion matters to NHRA more than the previouslty mentioned racers? Second, do you think your opinion matters more to NHRA than the opinion of Chrysler Or Ford? Although I have been accused of not using my name in my posts, my posts have my first initial with my last name, do you think that NHRA cares about someone who they don't probably even know? They would probably tell you that if you don't like the way things are build one of the new cars. If you say you can't afford to do that then they would say gee, thats too bad because like I said earlier NHRA takes care of its best customers and You probably don't have enough money to be one of their best customers. Are you starting to understand why you are preaching to an empty Church?

So, if (when) they put these cars in the FX class (or equivalent) for 2011 what will you say?

[Ed Wright]

FX classes won't help SS, where stock CJs were 1 & 2 is SS at Indy.
Only the most ignorant about engines would look at the engine specs and say "close enough".

[Chad Rhodes]

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

FX classes won't help SS, where stock CJs were 1 & 2 is SS at Indy.
Only the most ignorant about engines would look at the engine specs and say "close enough".

so you're saying Bruce and Danny did their best?