HP Rating....F Body vs FWD Conversion Cars

[joe176]

Alot of conversation takes place about how the F body camaro / firebird platform should be separate on the hp rating because it's at a performance disadvantage vs the FWD Cobalts/Cavaliers. I have alot of data that proves this right but not to the extreme that most racers I hear talking about say it is.
My 1985 Camaro ran well and I had my heart and soul into that car....it was a top qualifier/ record setting car. It had the same efi engine combination in it from the start of the 2006 season until I decided to switch to a cavalier at the Dutch Classic 2009. I have now run the cavalier for one full season and pretty much can say it is sorted out. The reason I wanted to make the change was more technology than love of the car per say. The new car has all the latest innovations to make it easier to work on. Dash comes out...one piece headers.....coil over front springs/struts...equal length four link.....so on and so forth.

So if you took a complete drivetrain out of a camaro and installed everything and I mean everything in a FWD conversion car.....what would it be worth ??

I know because I did it......I took the engine (efi intake to charlie's oil pan), injectors, trans,converter, complete msd ignition including the coil, big stuff computer, complete ring/pinion/center section, same M/T radials, shifter w/air kit, duplicated the Aeromotive fuel system, and the same 16 volt batteries. Out of the box at a track rental first time out at maple grove/dutch classic 09 the car in GT/FA went 9.81@ 133 mph four times in a row at race weight. .....which will be my term for fast runs with radial.

This is some of the comparable data that I have come up with in 5 years of running this particular combination.

Camaro----------------Camaro---------------Cavalier-----------------Cavalier
GT/HA-------------------GT/HA-----------------GT/FA-------------------GT/FA
Cecil 8/08-------------Atco 10/08---------Lebanon 7/10----------Etown 9/10

1.361---------------------1.336------------------1.270---------------------1.274
4.055---------------------4.006------------------3.901---------------------3.904
6.373---------------------6.294------------------6.148---------------------6.151
105.49........................106.81.............. ......109.86........................108.84
8.384..........................8.286.............. .........8.104..........................8.106
10.091........................9.988............... ........9.769..........................9.773
131.81........................132.27.............. ......134.79........................134.00

77.6 degrees.............74.9.......................... 69.8.............................68.8
51.4 %........................29.0 %.....................52.2%....................... ...51.1 %
29.99..........................30.07.............. ..........29.50...........................29.79
1573'..........................1291'.............. ..........1534'............................1112'
wind 15 degrees......wind 291...................wind 90........................wind 90
6-8 mph......................0-3 mph....................3-6 mph.......................10-11 mph
race weight................race weight..............race weight...................race weight
.................................................. ................ ..-275 lbs lighter.............-275 lbs. lighter

-1.259 old index........-1.362 old index.......-1.331 old index..........-1.327 old index

these are just a small sample of what I have found....these runs with the cavalier are after adjusting the converter, fuel map, shift points, leave rpm and rear gear.This car weighs 275 lbs lighter than the camaro at race weight....I have been comparing data for the latter half of this season for my own curiosity and I feel that the advantage is only 3-5 hundreths at the most....not a tenth to two tenths which is what I've heard in the past.

[SS Engine Guy]

Joe, your estimate seems accurate based on the difference in quarter and eight being in the 2.2 - 2.3 tenths faster. The old rule of 100 lbs being worth a tenth is not nearly as accurate as some originally thought the closer the racecar is to optimum. With a weight difference of 275 lbs. according to the old theory the car should be 2.75 tenths quicker and it is not. I know that your older Camaro was a pretty efficient piece and you have got the new car on the right track. HP is one thing, being able to use it optimally is another. You, being a pretty capable tuner, both engine and chassis makes this a valid (in my opinion) comparison.

I agree with you that the ease of being able to work on the new car easier is a definite advantage. Especially when trying different back to back comparisons.

I know what some are getting at about the fwd conversions. Being that the drivetrain is moved farther back in some cases. However, I never heard or saw you have any traction problems in the blue camaro.

[Ed Wright]

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing, Joe.

Btw, 100 lbs = .07 et in my car. My old N/S '56 Chevy Jr Stocker 100 lbs was more than a tenth. I was talking to Alan Patterson & Jim Hayter about this very thing once. Jim said most sbc Comp cars change about 5 hundredths per 100 lbs. I think, traction being equal, it's related more to hp. Just my guess.

[Lee Valentine]

Does Angelo know about this!

[joe176]

Originally Posted by Lee Valentine

Does Angelo know about this!

Yes he does Lee.

[Hagen Gary]

Thanks for your time to post and honesty about this situation.
Its my opinion that if NHRA is going to allow two totally different sets of rules for FWD Conversions and any RWD(not just f body) cars then why not add 2% of rated hp to the FWD conversion. That would equate to that 3-5 your talking about.

[Greg Hill]

Originally Posted by joe176

Alot of conversation takes place about how the F body camaro / firebird platform should be separate on the hp rating because it's at a performance disadvantage vs the FWD Cobalts/Cavaliers. I have alot of data that proves this right but not to the extreme that most racers I hear talking about say it is.
My 1985 Camaro ran well and I had my heart and soul into that car....it was a top qualifier/ record setting car. It had the same efi engine combination in it from the start of the 2006 season until I decided to switch to a cavalier at the Dutch Classic 2009. I have now run the cavalier for one full season and pretty much can say it is sorted out. The reason I wanted to make the change was more technology than love of the car per say. The new car has all the latest innovations to make it easier to work on. Dash comes out...one piece headers.....coil over front springs/struts...equal length four link.....so on and so forth.

So if you took a complete drivetrain out of a camaro and installed everything and I mean everything in a FWD conversion car.....what would it be worth ??

I know because I did it......I took the engine (efi intake to charlie's oil pan), injectors, trans,converter, complete msd ignition including the coil, big stuff computer, complete ring/pinion/center section, same M/T radials, shifter w/air kit, duplicated the Aeromotive fuel system, and the same 16 volt batteries. Out of the box at a track rental first time out at maple grove/dutch classic 09 the car in GT/FA went 9.81@ 133 mph four times in a row at race weight. .....which will be my term for fast runs with radial.

This is some of the comparable data that I have come up with in 5 years of running this particular combination.

Camaro----------------Camaro---------------Cavalier-----------------Cavalier
GT/HA-------------------GT/HA-----------------GT/FA-------------------GT/FA
Cecil 8/08-------------Atco 10/08---------Lebanon 7/10----------Etown 9/10

1.361---------------------1.336------------------1.270---------------------1.274
4.055---------------------4.006------------------3.901---------------------3.904
6.373---------------------6.294------------------6.148---------------------6.151
105.49........................106.81.............. ......109.86........................108.84
8.384..........................8.286.............. .........8.104..........................8.106
10.091........................9.988............... ........9.769..........................9.773
131.81........................132.27.............. ......134.79........................134.00

77.6 degrees.............74.9.......................... 69.8.............................68.8
51.4 %........................29.0 %.....................52.2%....................... ...51.1 %
29.99..........................30.07.............. ..........29.50...........................29.79
1573'..........................1291'.............. ..........1534'............................1112'
wind 15 degrees......wind 291...................wind 90........................wind 90
6-8 mph......................0-3 mph....................3-6 mph.......................10-11 mph
race weight................race weight..............race weight...................race weight
.................................................. ................ ..-275 lbs lighter.............-275 lbs. lighter

-1.259 old index........-1.362 old index.......-1.331 old index..........-1.327 old index

these are just a small sample of what I have found....these runs with the cavalier are after adjusting the converter, fuel map, shift points, leave rpm and rear gear.This car weighs 275 lbs lighter than the camaro at race weight....I have been comparing data for the latter half of this season for my own curiosity and I feel that the advantage is only 3-5 hundreths at the most....not a tenth to two tenths which is what I've heard in the past.

Joe in 2008 when I was a member of the SRAC I had a couple of D3 racers ask me to help get the rule changed to allow separate factoring for the rear wheel drive cars in SS GT compared to the fwd conversions. I did a little unscientific research and most of the people I talked to thought there was about .05 to .07 difference. If a chevelle and a camaro can be factored separately there is no reason the fwd cars and the rwd cars couldn't be factored separately or so I thought. The SRAC had a fair amount of discussion on this topic and voted to recommend that the rule be changed to separate the fwd cars from the rwd ones. We never heard from the AHFS committee on this if my memory is right. It was like we didn't exists. I think it might take a small amount of additional work on NHRA's part to do this but not a lot.

On your combination I would say that because you were running your Cavalier 275 lbs lighter than your Camaro it's possible that you may not have the optimum converter, rear gear ratio or trans ratios in your new car. I would assume that you had all of these optomized for your Camaro. Your Cavalier might like these things a little different to get the most out of it.

[joe176]

Originally Posted by Greg Hill

Joe in 2008 when I was a member of the SRAC I had a couple of D3 racers ask me to help get the rule changed to allow separate factoring for the rear wheel drive cars in SS GT compared to the fwd conversions. I did a little unscientific research and most of the people I talked to thought there was about .05 to .07 difference. If a chevelle and a camaro can be factored separately there is no reason the fwd cars and the rwd cars couldn't be factored separately or so I thought. The SRAC had a fair amount of discussion on this topic and voted to recommend that the rule be changed to separate the fwd cars from the rwd ones. We never heard from the AHFS committee on this if my memory is right. It was like we didn't exists. I think it might take a small amount of additional work on NHRA's part to do this but not a lot.

On your combination I would say that because you were running your Cavalier 275 lbs lighter than your Camaro it's possible that you may not have the optimum converter, rear gear ratio or trans ratios in your new car. I would assume that you had all of these optomized for your Camaro. Your Cavalier might like these things a little different to get the most out of it.

Greg...you've got to be kidding me....this is laughable !!!!! Did you not read my post ????........ Don't assume ....enough said.

[Greg Hill]

Sorry I didn't look at your last paragraph.

[stefan callender]

Originally Posted by Greg Hill

Joe in 2008 when I was a member of the SRAC I had a couple of D3 racers ask me to help get the rule changed to allow separate factoring for the rear wheel drive cars in SS GT compared to the fwd conversions. I did a little unscientific research and most of the people I talked to thought there was about .05 to .07 difference. If a chevelle and a camaro can be factored separately there is no reason the fwd cars and the rwd cars couldn't be factored separately or so I thought. The SRAC had a fair amount of discussion on this topic and voted to recommend that the rule be changed to separate the fwd cars from the rwd ones. We never heard from the AHFS committee on this if my memory is right. It was like we didn't exists. I think it might take a small amount of additional work on NHRA's part to do this but not a lot.

On your combination I would say that because you were running your Cavalier 275 lbs lighter than your Camaro it's possible that you may not have the optimum converter, rear gear ratio or trans ratios in your new car. I would assume that you had all of these optomized for your Camaro. Your Cavalier might like these things a little different to get the most out of it.

Gregg, on what basis do you think that the FWD conversion cars are worth that much?? What two cars are you using as a comparison? Here is a guy that transplanted his drivetrain from one car to another, and has proven what it was worth with HIS combination. Maybe with another combination it would be different, apples to apples.