Crate Engines in NHRA?

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by Hagen Gary

Well said. Everybody is worried about how the new cars and thier factors are slaping traditional stockers in the face, and they don't see that NHRA has been straight kicking us in the balls for years with the purse structure. If I wasn't born into this, No way in hell would I be doing it.

I wasn't born into it, but then I'm not just real bright.

[Greg Hill]

At least IHRA rates the crate motors fairly and puts them in their own class.

[Hagen Gary]

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

I wasn't born into it, but then I'm not just real bright.

From what I gather, the risk vs reward was worth it years ago when you were doing it and my father started. How many new people have shown up out of nowhere in the last 10 years? I'm willing to bet its less than 1/10th of the people who left the sport.

[Dwight Southerland]

Billy -
I wholeheartedly agree with what you bring up as another major issue. In fact, I could easily argue that it is THE issue that is molding the future of Stock/SS racing. It is encouraging that regional associations are making progress in making other options for the existing racer population. IHRA is doing some good stuff, too. I do not beleive that the answer is not going to come from NHRA, however. What may be happening is the planets aligning for a good chance for a national level sportsman association/organization/racing venue. It might possibly be a coalition of several regional associations with some of the characteristics that existed for the separate divisions when NHRA first formed - identity, inter-regional competition, few but significant national races. Such an arrangement is easier to fund and likely easier to promote. What is key is a national level governing body for the assurance of consistent competition (national rules management and enforcement agency). When you think about it, NHRA could provide that sanctioning role and rules management, but not be the race company. That would look more like what SEMA does for equipment sanctioning.

Also, it seems that part of an answer lies in getting some program going that could be implemented at the local or semi-local level that would be foundational for supporting broader geographic competition. March Madness would not be as big a deal without the SEC, the Big Ten, etc. and their contests.

Thinking out loud.

[Randall Klein]

Interesting concept about regional S/SS series coming together as "conferences" in 3-5 "national races" with a year-end October Madness....the mistrust of a national group (SRA etc) would be mitigated by the local trust and vetting....couldn't afford an annualized tech crew, but for a handful of national get-togethers I could see paying a recognized tech overseer (Wesley, Travis) to "keep-'em-honest"

A payout could be patterned after the "buy-in" poker series, and/or from dollars saved from NHRA fees

The BIG problem as I see it, is access to the super tracks we have all come to enjoy which I'm afraid we would be locked out of

just dreaming

[Bob Pagano]

Randall & Dwight, I dont think its a dream or a passing thought. As nhra looses its grip and pushes traditional S & SS away we as a large group could then form our own deal. At that point Alex Denysenko type races can be run just like ADRL .

[Dwight Southerland]

Bob - I think that support in a smaller venue is more sustainable. The national level races only work when there is a healthy and large pool of participants to attract. The population of racers who are continuing to pour money and time into their operations just to participate at national level races is dwindling rapidly.

[Alan Roehrich]

The purse structure is just another symptom of the systemic disease that is NHRA management. I don't see how anyone can interpret the way NHRA treats class racers as anything other than disdain for a cash cow that they find it necessary to tolerate.

To a degree, I do agree with Billy that part of the reason for the lack of youth involvement is that they can build a cheaper bracket car and race for more money with less hassle and investment. But there's something else going on. The youth of today, in general, have been raised in an environment that discourages them from having any desire for strictly structured competition such as class racing. They'd rather go faster, with less work, and less investment. That's the prevailing attitude for 99% of today's youth that IS involved in motor sports, and it has been for a long time.

I've been working in the business since I was around 18 years old, and I've seen the attitude become more and more common. I think it's really a matter of the development and progress that higher end racing has brought to the aftermarket. Parts that were once found only in Modified, Comp, and Pro Stock, have now become as common as double hump small block Chevy heads and 750 Holley carburetors once were.

When most of us "old school" or "hard core" guys started in this, aluminum heads, shaft rockers, roller cams, billet cranks, and 14:1 compression were the domain of the "big boys". Now, 600 cubic inch 1200HP engines are as common as anything else in the pits. Super Comp and Super Gas are both full of them. "Back in the day", a 140MPH low nine second race car was a rare thing. But now, you can walk through the staging lanes and see near current Pro Stock chassis, and nearly as much HP, in a Super Gas car, that runs high sevens off the stop, and runs 165MPH at 9.90 on the stop.

For the youth of today, there's a ton more allure to that Super Gas car than there is to a killer traditional SS/A car, or even a SS/AH car. And Stock Eliminator? Boys, we ain't even in the ball park. Even the new cars that can run low nines at near150MPH are passe. Very few of them, far fewer than in the past, have any appreciation at all for what goes into a fast class car.

They came into the shop, and their eyes glazed over watching a Stock Eliminator engine going together. No big roller cam, no big Dominator intake, no CNC ported Big Chief heads, no 14:1 pistons. "Boring" they said, as they rolled their glazed eyes and wander off, looking for nitrous and bigger cams.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the entry fees drop substantially, and the purses tripled or quadrupled. In fact, I think that's just a good start. But I do not for a minute believe that if NHRA were to announce next Monday, that, effective immediately, the entry fee for a nation event would drop to a flat $200 for car, driver, and one crew, and the purse for a 64 car or larger field would be $5K to win, that we'd see a dramatic increase in the car count. Let's face it, you can still spend less and win more at a big bracket race weekend like the Tenn/Tuck bracket bash this past weekend. So class racing, for the most part, is never going to compete with bracket racing in that way. There will always be bracket races that pay more for less, and take a lot less work.

I'm not convinced about "ego" being the factor behind what a lot of people race, either. Just to take our own operation as an example, we race two 69 Camaros now. Neither owner is egotistical about going fast or spending money. They both just happen to love 69 Camaros, and they love to go fast. A guy that loves to go fast is going to build a big block upper class car, he's not going to build a 6 cylinder car. So we have a 427 in the AA/SA car, and a 396 in the SS/EA car. For a lot of people, us included, the low ten to low nine second zone is a real "sweet spot".

We had the little G/S 69 Camaro that I drove. And it was fun. No, it wasn't just fun, it was a blast. But if we still had it, odds are, it would have an iron head 396 or a 427 in it. It has nothing to do with ego, it's just that I find it a lot more fun to run low tens and high nines than I do to run elevens. And once you've been faster, until you get to the point where you know you aren't good enough to go that fast anymore, and you know you need to step down, you don't want to go slower.

We've got a ton of friends who have cool slower cars. We love the cars, and we don't feel superior to any of the friends who own them. There must be some sort of perception of "class warfare" in or behind this "ego" thing. Sure, there may be some people who have a big ego and a big wallet, in fact, I'm sure there are. But I'm just as sure that there are a whole lot more who are just "speed junkies", for lack of a better term. I think the latter outnumber the former by 30 to 1 or better.

I just find all the "ego" stuff and the "haves and have nots" stuff to be divisive, and counterproductive, not to mention just plain silly. It's just another wedge driven into the group as a whole, that keeps us from unifying in our own best interests. Like any group, everyone doesn't love everyone. Racers as a whole are a lot less divided than most, we share a lot of common ground. But it seems we sure are willing to let people and things distract us from our real problems.

Honestly, I almost think NHRA revels in our silly divisive attitudes, and while they may not do anything with a specific intent to foster them, I would not be surprised to find that they think that anything that has that side effect to be a bonus.

I don't pretend to have the answers, not by a long shot. I wish I had more and better answers to the problems we face.

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by Hagen Gary

From what I gather, the risk vs reward was worth it years ago when you were doing it and my father started. How many new people have shown up out of nowhere in the last 10 years? I'm willing to bet its less than 1/10th of the people who left the sport.

Yes, years ago if you won Indy, and had to bomb your record in the final to win, you could build a different car with what you won. Still pays about the number of dollars, but they aren't worth much anymore. Ten grand in 1970 would build another car if you did your own work, and most of us did back then..