Where are the lower class cars?

[Dwight Southerland]

Some things to consider about the "harder to win with a slower car" and "more sensitive to . . . " observations: First, in this era of technology (weather stations, ET predicting software, etc.), there is the possibility of better tools to help with the dialing of those cars. It may be that the current products have some built in limitations that make them not as applicable as they could be, but the possibility for more accurate analysis is available. Secondly, there are a gazillion late model high-tech small engined cars out there that aren't in the classification guide. Now NHRA is not going to voluntarily put out the effort to get them listed, but somebody could do all the legwork. Granted most are FWD, but NHRA could also respond to increased participation with expanding the coverage of those classes again. The fields are ripe for a new definition of "Jr Stock". Considering the potential of some of those combinations, the ability to have a car with little modification that would be competitive is certainly possible. Thirdly, if half the effort had been put into the accumulation of knowledge and technique of racing slower, mostly environment-sensitive cars as has been put into racing big power cars, the ability to step into a competitive and winning slower car would be easier and more attractive. That can be overcome and is a mission for somebody.

Another nickel on the soapbox.

[Bob Bender]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Some things to consider about the "harder to win with a slower car" and "more sensitive to . . . " observations: First, in this era of technology (weather stations, ET predicting software, etc.), there is the possibility of better tools to help with the dialing of those cars. It may be that the current products have some built in limitations that make them not as applicable as they could be, but the possibility for more accurate analysis is available. Secondly, there are a gazillion late model high-tech small engined cars out there that aren't in the classification guide. Now NHRA is not going to voluntarily put out the effort to get them listed, but somebody could do all the legwork. Granted most are FWD, but NHRA could also respond to increased participation with expanding the coverage of those classes again. The fields are ripe for a new definition of "Jr Stock". Considering the potential of some of those combinations, the ability to have a car with little modification that would be competitive is certainly possible. Thirdly, if half the effort had been put into the accumulation of knowledge and technique of racing slower, mostly environment-sensitive cars as has been put into racing big power cars, the ability to step into a competitive and winning slower car would be easier and more attractive. That can be overcome and is a mission for somebody.

Another nickel on the soapbox.

100% Correct ..... look at me at E-Town...picked up.09 from somwhere(think the wind laid down a lot on the run)

[Danny Ashley]

Looking at first round of Stock qualifying at Norwalk, 85% were G and faster.

[Michael Beard]

Originally Posted by Danny Ashley

Looking at first round of Stock qualifying at Norwalk, 85% were G and faster.

And realistically, only 3 cars 12-sec and slower. (Veach and Pires will obviously go faster)

[goinbroke2]

I think, in a nut shell that the upper classes are filled with people who can afford it. The middle by people who are doing what they can to be as fast as they can. The lower classes by low buck or entry level people. I realise this is a generalisation, but in most cases it fits.
That being said, I really enjoy slower/oddball/different combo's, moreso than the A-E/S.
I enjoy watching the big wheelstands from the older ponycars/musclecars, but other than that my heart is with the R or T and down Stockers.

So why is there less slower cars? Sure they might be less competetive or less likely to win, but that has always been the case. Less performance parts? Sure but again that's not new. So what is it? I would say the upper classes can still afford it, period. The middle classes are running less but can still scrape by with less update/upgrades. The lower classes, who could only scrape together the bucks to run when they can with what they can, just can't afford it in these times.
Any "enhancement" that cost $$$ can be absorbed by the big bucks guys (who coincidentily are running upper classes) but ask a lower class guy? Then it's "man I have to find another $1000 somewhere so I'll be legal again".

Maybe I'm just cheap, but I love the underdogs/lower classes.
(Was digging around in some old boxes of mags recently and found the Stock/Superstock mag with Steve Polhills interview with the Escort, excellent!)

(Oh and for the record, yes I'm tired of seeing 69 camaro's.) LOL

[Dwight Southerland]

Here is another observation. When you consider the cost of building a full high tech car, there is little difference in the cost of building a 4-bbl V8 of any variety. What I mean is, if you are building a small block Chevy, for example, there is little difference to build a 305 smogger as it is to build a top of the line high performance version. The cost of the pistons, rods, valve train, heads, machine work, suspension, roll bar/cage, transmission, accessories, trick parts, etc. etc. is the same for the 305 that runs high elevens as it is for a ten second combination. The same for about any manufacturer. So why spend all that time and money on a mid to high eleven second car when you can go tens for the same $$? The are anomalies to those characteristics, but I would dare say that Wade Owens' 283 M/SA cost just as much as a competitive C or D car. It's not until you get away from some of the basic standard 4-bbl V8 costs that things change dramatically. Now I know that an FE Ford or a Hemi costs more than a small block Chevy, but as a rule you will have some basic core costs that are the same. That is a major reason why more faster cars are built.

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Here is another observation. When you consider the cost of building a full high tech car, there is little difference in the cost of building a 4-bbl V8 of any variety. What I mean is, if you are building a small block Chevy, for example, there is little difference to build a 305 smogger as it is to build a top of the line high performance version. The cost of the pistons, rods, valve train, heads, machine work, suspension, roll bar/cage, transmission, accessories, trick parts, etc. etc. is the same for the 305 that runs high elevens as it is for a ten second combination. The same for about any manufacturer. So why spend all that time and money on a mid to high eleven second car when you can go tens for the same $$? The are anomalies to those characteristics, but I would dare say that Wade Owens' 283 M/SA cost just as much as a competitive C or D car. It's not until you get away from some of the basic standard 4-bbl V8 costs that things change dramatically. Now I know that an FE Ford or a Hemi costs more than a small block Chevy, but as a rule you will have some basic core costs that are the same. That is a major reason why more faster cars are built.

Dwight,true to a point about costs.But how many 305 cores (blocks,heads,intakes,cranks,
etc) can you buy for the cost of a 396/375,427 any hp rating,for that matter a 390 AMC?
I believe for the most part lower class stockers are built by guys with not a lot to spend.My car,which I bought for $125 came only in the class guide with a 258 6 cylinder.If I wanted to build a 1969 SC/Rambler (390 4 speed only) a ragtag original car would be over $10K.
Even a clone rambler non post car commands a good buck,for a rambler.
I built my car on my small budget.I've had a moderate amount of success in the past 11 years.I've worked hard at finding a way (with a lot of help from Tom Goldman) to get the car to run the number on the window.I think we've succeded at that.Now I need to race more to get the tree down again.Any car can be successful,fast or slow,with the right driver with the right mindset.

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

I think, in a nut shell that the upper classes are filled with people who can afford it. The middle by people who are doing what they can to be as fast as they can. The lower classes by low buck or entry level people. I realise this is a generalisation, but in most cases it fits.
That being said, I really enjoy slower/oddball/different combo's, moreso than the A-E/S.
I enjoy watching the big wheelstands from the older ponycars/musclecars, but other than that my heart is with the R or T and down Stockers.

So why is there less slower cars? Sure they might be less competetive or less likely to win, but that has always been the case. Less performance parts? Sure but again that's not new. So what is it? I would say the upper classes can still afford it, period. The middle classes are running less but can still scrape by with less update/upgrades. The lower classes, who could only scrape together the bucks to run when they can with what they can, just can't afford it in these times.
Any "enhancement" that cost $$$ can be absorbed by the big bucks guys (who coincidentily are running upper classes) but ask a lower class guy? Then it's "man I have to find another $1000 somewhere so I'll be legal again".

Maybe I'm just cheap, but I love the underdogs/lower classes.
(Was digging around in some old boxes of mags recently and found the Stock/Superstock mag with Steve Polhills interview with the Escort, excellent!)

(Oh and for the record, yes I'm tired of seeing 69 camaro's.) LOL

AMEN BROTHER, to borrow from HULK HOGAN....

[GarysZ24]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Some things to consider about the "harder to win with a slower car" and "more sensitive to . . . " observations: First, in this era of technology (weather stations, ET predicting software, etc.), there is the possibility of better tools to help with the dialing of those cars. It may be that the current products have some built in limitations that make them not as applicable as they could be, but the possibility for more accurate analysis is available. Secondly, there are a gazillion late model high-tech small engined cars out there that aren't in the classification guide. Now NHRA is not going to voluntarily put out the effort to get them listed, but somebody could do all the legwork. Granted most are FWD, but NHRA could also respond to increased participation with expanding the coverage of those classes again. The fields are ripe for a new definition of "Jr Stock". Considering the potential of some of those combinations, the ability to have a car with little modification that would be competitive is certainly possible. Thirdly, if half the effort had been put into the accumulation of knowledge and technique of racing slower, mostly environment-sensitive cars as has been put into racing big power cars, the ability to step into a competitive and winning slower car would be easier and more attractive. That can be overcome and is a mission for somebody.

Another nickel on the soapbox.

Again well said Dwight, the way I see it, if Jody Lang can do it, then anybody can do it, as long as they're willing & able to apply theirselves to what they're racing like he has for so many years...Jody's winning to day (even in spite of the DP's and the CJ's), with the same Malibu wagon he won the '98 & '99 Mopar Mile High's with. Every time Jody wins (especially against those cars that are 3sec.'s quicker than his), then I know that I can do it too, so I know it can be done...other fwd and slower roller racers have one numerous elimination heats against the faster cars as well, so as far as I'm concerned the equipment is here. Although NHRA has allowed the faster cars things to help make them faster like wheelie bars, and different valves/springs, and other engine components that weren't legal in Stock 30yrs ago, they haven't been so liberal with the fwd cars (like giving FI cars like mine an option to replace their factory systems, with earlier production carbureted induction systems, to possibly improve their cars ability to be more competitive w/o the expensive FI systems). Why not NHRA? You guys want to know why I've been so much of an advocate of IHRA this year, that's one of the biggest reasons why...they make it easier for the faster cars to be even faster, but they haven't offered options to us slower roller (and especially fwd) racers to help make our cars quicker and more competitive too...what's fair about that???

Dwight, I could only hope that racers interested in some newer (against the norm combos), will get their oem stats and send them to NHRA just like I did, because prior to my desire to get my car to be a stocker, it wasn't in the classification guide either. The Late Great Founder of NHRA "Wally Parks", was the proponent of fwd racing in Stock Eliminator. He's sadly gone, and it's beginning to show with how the fwd & all class racers are being treated...NHRA didn't need to go to such extremes with class consolidation, but carbureted racers are paying for it when racing FI cars, and fwd's didn't need to go from 16, down to 5...8 would've been a sacrifice too, but it would've made more sense!

To whoever (in another thread earlier this year) said NHRA reads these posts, I hope you're right, because I want them to know how I feel about their apparent lack of caring for us sportsman class racers who want to compete at the national/divisional events they offer, but every year it seems that they're showing that they don't give a damn about us...adding these new sportsman classes (that aren't rules restricted), raising our competition costs, not talking to ESPN about getting shows like "Inside Drag Racing" back (thus allowing our cars to be seen again like they used to be 5yrs ago), yet claiming to support sportsman racing...words are one thing, but actions are something else, and those actions aren't very supportive IMHO!!!

Finally, if NHRA really cares about us sportsman racers, then they should reduce our competiton costs...our purse sizes (with contingencies included), are down so the entry fees, and registration costs should be down too...especially until America gets back to work again...that sounds fair to me!

My .02 x's 2!