Stocker Cylinder Heads....

PJ305 · 06-19-2012, 09:02 AM

" Any valve job permitted " What does that really mean? In old rule books NHRA gave you an example of what an accepted 3 angle was supposed to look like along with measurements. If you have small intake runners to keep velocity up, are you allowed to put your heads on a serdi machine and open up the bottom angle as big as you want with a cutter off the valve guide and still be legal under there new any valve job rule? You did not grind, sandblast, acid port, shot peen or anything else, you simply did a fancy valve job on a machine with cutters off the valve guide. Will NHRA tech allow this if the runner cc checks or will this be a gray area judgement call " the famous I don't like the way it looks " I don't think Wade or any of us want to here that phrase anymore.

Alan Roehrich · 06-19-2012, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJ305

" Any valve job permitted " What does that really mean? In old rule books NHRA gave you an example of what an accepted 3 angle was supposed to look like along with measurements. If you have small intake runners to keep velocity up, are you allowed to put your heads on a serdi machine and open up the bottom angle as big as you want with a cutter off the valve guide and still be legal under there new any valve job rule? You did not grind, sandblast, acid port, shot peen or anything else, you simply did a fancy valve job on a machine with cutters off the valve guide. Will NHRA tech allow this if the runner cc checks or will this be a gray area judgement call " the famous I don't like the way it looks " I don't think Wade or any of us want to here that phrase anymore.

I was told that any cut had to be concentric with the valve guide, it had to be a cut, not ground, and the angle/shape had to go all the way around the bowl/seat, 360 degrees, and there was no depth restriction. Legal port volume must be retained.

If I were going to do something like that, I'd "get it in writing from Glendora", and keep it in the notebook that goes with the car.

Wade_Owens · 06-19-2012, 11:34 AM

All of you guys are confirming my original post. There is so much confusion on the cylinder head topic, it's unbelievable. Some of you say NHRA wants it this way. I don't think so. It takes posts and comments for them to realize it is a problem. Those tech guys don't like judgement calls either. They want a rule book they can stand on, too.

Weve had quite a few changes to the rule book in the last few years. We need more clarification on this topic.

Wade

Dan Bennett · 06-19-2012, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wade_Owens

All of you guys are confirming my original post. There is so much confusion on the cylinder head topic, it's unbelievable. Some of you say NHRA wants it this way. I don't think so. It takes posts and comments for them to realize it is a problem. Those tech guys don't like judgement calls either. They want a rule book they can stand on, too.

Weve had quite a few changes to the rule book in the last few years. We need more clarification on this topic.

Wade

Wade, I can understand your concern and totally agree with you. But I don't think things are going to get any better.

While the tech guys don't like judgement calls, I'd bet their bosses do. If you leave the rulebook vague you don't have to have highly skilled workers spending a lot of time in precision measurement. You'd get the the environment we have today where not many cars get torn down and those that do have management saying "I know his stuff, he's ok" or "I don't trust that guy". Note that I am NOT talking about the tech guys in the trenches - I'm talking about the brass that so often seem to overrule them.

Then there's the problem of qualified people administering the program. I can remember that it took the better part of a year to get the plug gauge for measuring carb throats changed. The one I saw was made of aluminum, painted (or anodized) black and was often laying on a table in the sun. I guess it might have saved some people but it sure wasn't much good at keeping the carbs in spec.

Even if the rules did get re-written to be meaningful they couldn't be policed under the present system. First, there aren't enough people to handle the tear down, and more importantly there isn't the time as the events are presently structured.

Rich Biebel · 06-19-2012, 05:27 PM

Todd.......I don't mean to slander Spankos or Jenkins but I don't recall the Monster Mash ever winning anything on a national level. Maybe he won locally and I am sure he did at places like Cecil and many other tracks in their area and maybe a special race here or there......but I have no memory of the car winning anything major like an NHRA national.

Some of the Jenkins cars were regulars at Island and if there was a special race they might show up.....Pete Preston......The Mash a time or two....Dink Lawrence were some names I can recall around 1966. Jenkins raced there himself a few times....and everyone was well aware of any car with the Jenkins logo on it.......It was usually going to be a fast car....

As my friend Billy Nees mentioned you had to win class every week at your local track to run the eliminator. Local regulars got special treatment and you know that is true......BUT it only went so far. If someone thought you were cheating they could protest you and it did happen......and it happened to me and my partner with our sedan delivery.......

We were running a bucks up Jr stock race at Island and John Archambault protested us.....He wanted our cam checked and insisted it could not be stock because we ran a couple MPH better than him.......We were under protest so we made BYE runs thru the eliminator......untill the final......We raced The Monster Mash and expected to lose.....He missed a gear and we won........We were torn down in the barn up the hill from the track and after a long time we were awarded the win and the money.......
This race was in the fall after Indy.....
We were DQ'ed at Indy as the class r/up for a camshaft that was in the car that came from GM as a replacement......but was not accepted by NHRA yet.....The class winner was DQ'ed for the same thing.......A few weeks later the cam was accepted and it was what was in the car.....

If you were branded a cheater by being flunked in the barn.....Well you had a tough time undoing that and your competitors let you know it right up front.....

Trust me when I tell you those days were not all just friendly competition.......

My only point in all this is to point out that things were a lot different back then......The rulebook was not that much different than today when it comes to heads. Yes valves and the valvjob is more liberal but not the wording about the rest of it......

NHRA has no man power....will or interest in enforcing the rules so what you have today is a direct result of years of that......and I guess if you're going to run Stock.....you do what your comfortable with......

I probably enjoy driving a stocker as much or more than any other car or class.......and I have driven a lot of cars over the years.......I just dislike some of the "issues" that go with the category......

Your cars always run well and your a good racer......The Hard Times car is high on my list of all time great Stockers.....I always had a liking for Pontiacs........

Peter Ash · 06-21-2012, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wade_Owens

All of you guys are confirming my original post. There is so much confusion on the cylinder head topic, it's unbelievable. Some of you say NHRA wants it this way. I don't think so. It takes posts and comments for them to realize it is a problem. Those tech guys don't like judgement calls either. They want a rule book they can stand on, too.

Weve had quite a few changes to the rule book in the last few years. We need more clarification on this topic.

Wade

Dear N.H.R.A.

Is there only one competitive "Old School" car in the entire Stock Eliminator Class that is complying with the cylinder head rules.

It appears to be time for some clarification!

Peter Ash

"sent today"

Dear N.H.R.A. Technical Services

I would like to see the Rules regarding Stock Eliminator Cylinder Heads strictly enforced to help bring equity to the hard working members in the Stock Eliminator class.

Yours truly

Peter Ash

BlueOval Ralph · 06-21-2012, 02:11 PM

Sure there are the new paper cars with CNC Ported heads.

mtkawboy · 06-21-2012, 04:36 PM

See post #1

06-19-2012, 11:34 AM	#3
Wade_Owens Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 578 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 1 Post	Re: Stocker Cylinder Heads.... All of you guys are confirming my original post. There is so much confusion on the cylinder head topic, it's unbelievable. Some of you say NHRA wants it this way. I don't think so. It takes posts and comments for them to realize it is a problem. Those tech guys don't like judgement calls either. They want a rule book they can stand on, too. Weve had quite a few changes to the rule book in the last few years. We need more clarification on this topic. Wade

06-19-2012, 05:27 PM	#5
Rich Biebel VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northern New Jersey suburbs Posts: 2,314 Likes: 25 Liked 544 Times in 213 Posts	Re: Stocker Cylinder Heads.... Todd.......I don't mean to slander Spankos or Jenkins but I don't recall the Monster Mash ever winning anything on a national level. Maybe he won locally and I am sure he did at places like Cecil and many other tracks in their area and maybe a special race here or there......but I have no memory of the car winning anything major like an NHRA national. Some of the Jenkins cars were regulars at Island and if there was a special race they might show up.....Pete Preston......The Mash a time or two....Dink Lawrence were some names I can recall around 1966. Jenkins raced there himself a few times....and everyone was well aware of any car with the Jenkins logo on it.......It was usually going to be a fast car.... As my friend Billy Nees mentioned you had to win class every week at your local track to run the eliminator. Local regulars got special treatment and you know that is true......BUT it only went so far. If someone thought you were cheating they could protest you and it did happen......and it happened to me and my partner with our sedan delivery....... We were running a bucks up Jr stock race at Island and John Archambault protested us.....He wanted our cam checked and insisted it could not be stock because we ran a couple MPH better than him.......We were under protest so we made BYE runs thru the eliminator......untill the final......We raced The Monster Mash and expected to lose.....He missed a gear and we won........We were torn down in the barn up the hill from the track and after a long time we were awarded the win and the money....... This race was in the fall after Indy..... We were DQ'ed at Indy as the class r/up for a camshaft that was in the car that came from GM as a replacement......but was not accepted by NHRA yet.....The class winner was DQ'ed for the same thing.......A few weeks later the cam was accepted and it was what was in the car..... If you were branded a cheater by being flunked in the barn.....Well you had a tough time undoing that and your competitors let you know it right up front..... Trust me when I tell you those days were not all just friendly competition....... My only point in all this is to point out that things were a lot different back then......The rulebook was not that much different than today when it comes to heads. Yes valves and the valvjob is more liberal but not the wording about the rest of it...... NHRA has no man power....will or interest in enforcing the rules so what you have today is a direct result of years of that......and I guess if you're going to run Stock.....you do what your comfortable with...... I probably enjoy driving a stocker as much or more than any other car or class.......and I have driven a lot of cars over the years.......I just dislike some of the "issues" that go with the category...... Your cars always run well and your a good racer......The Hard Times car is high on my list of all time great Stockers.....I always had a liking for Pontiacs........ __________________ Rich Biebel S/C 1479 Stock 147R

06-21-2012, 02:11 PM	#7
BlueOval Ralph Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 852 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Stocker Cylinder Heads.... Sure there are the new paper cars with CNC Ported heads.

06-21-2012, 04:36 PM	#8
mtkawboy Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Billings Mt Posts: 282 Likes: 186 Liked 54 Times in 18 Posts	Re: Stocker Cylinder Heads.... See post #1

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06-19-2012, 09:02 AM	#1
PJ305 Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 137 Likes: 0 Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Re: Stocker Cylinder Heads.... " Any valve job permitted " What does that really mean? In old rule books NHRA gave you an example of what an accepted 3 angle was supposed to look like along with measurements. If you have small intake runners to keep velocity up, are you allowed to put your heads on a serdi machine and open up the bottom angle as big as you want with a cutter off the valve guide and still be legal under there new any valve job rule? You did not grind, sandblast, acid port, shot peen or anything else, you simply did a fancy valve job on a machine with cutters off the valve guide. Will NHRA tech allow this if the runner cc checks or will this be a gray area judgement call " the famous I don't like the way it looks " I don't think Wade or any of us want to here that phrase anymore.