Question for Jeff Foster and Dave Kommel

[Michael Beard]

The only reason I have not heard yet...........and I feel it is THE REAL ANSWER, is DeFrank's car moved. I do not mean forward or rearward roll; I mean when his top bulb came on he went to the chip and it "shook the front tires" enough to let the infra-red beam to get to the receiver cell. I owned a track and watched A LOT of races on the starting line.

Once AGAIN....!!!

1) One updated version of the system includes a provision that locks out the pre-stage and stage bulbs from coming back on once the system thinks the car has left the beams (ie., stage light out), until the computer is reset. This prevents the pre-stage and stage lights from flickering when the rear tire goes passes through the starting line.
2) This red light phenomenon has occured at multiple tracks. One instance included a car that was footbraked: staged at a low rpm, then was brought up on the converter and was there for several seconds. The car was *solidly* staged with absolutely zero posibility of it having backed out of the beams.
3) The above incident, as well as several others that we have seen all show the red light displaying BEFORE the pre-stage and stage lights go out. This is a critical point that everyone continues to completely ignore.
4) If a car did in fact rock back out of the beams, you would see the stage light and pre-stage go out simultaneously due to the stage bulb lockout system (see #1 above) along with the red light being displayed. The only case in which the red light should be displayed BEFORE the stage light going out would be in the case of a deep stage foul in the classes that do not permit it.

YES, it is still possible to have a red-light from rocking out of the beams on systems not utilizing StageLock, and in fact it just happened in Super Comp last weekend at Gainesville. The multiple incidents we have been discussing are demonstrably different situations.

[Greg Reimer 7376]

What are photographers doing there anyways? There's too many bodies around that starting line anyway at that race, and although we can't change history, we can eliminate that possibility real quickly. It's also a safety issue. Drive line failure on the line could eject parts, somebody that close could get hit, there's also the distraction factor.Good photos can happen from other locations, why do they have to do that right there?

[Dinsdale]

There is plenty of evidence both video and people right there to prove one way or another if DeFrank's car moved. My opinion for the zero it's worth is his car didn't move.

There is no evidence so far to prove that a camera flash did indeed cause the false red so it's NHRA's "that's our story and we're sticking to it" once again. This isn't an isolated incident and getting to the truth of the matter would be a big step in getting it fixed.

[Toby Lang]

Originally Posted by Greg Reimer 7376

What are photographers doing there anyways?

They are there to take the blame for timing system failures, obviously.

Don't know who or what they will blame it on now when it happens again.

[Toby Lang]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

3) The above incident, as well as several others that we have seen all show the red light displaying BEFORE the pre-stage and stage lights go out. This is a critical point that everyone continues to completely ignore.

This isn't that big of a deal. The video camera just catches the stage light as it's going out and the red light as it's coming on. Here are just a few examples I found. There are plenty more.


2011 Winternationals, incandescent stage bulbs:




2012 Winternationals, LED stage bulbs:




I have a question for you, Michael, since you seem pretty well versed in the stage-lock system. In Mr. Cotten's meeting with Jeff Foster and Mike Rice they told him: "It is not impossible to have a roll back red light with the stage lock on. But, it requires a motion of at least of a half inch to the rear."

My question to you is: How does the system know if you are a half inch behind the beam? I don't think the computer can tell how far you are behind the beam unless the infrared sensor can tell from how much infrared light it's receiving from the reflector. If not, I would think you could roll back until you turned the pre-stage light off.

And this begs the question, if the infrared sensor can tell how much infrared light it receives, why can't it differentiate between infrared light and a flash from a photographers camera?

[partsbob67]

another interesting point is that on another post on here is that someone posted that this doesn't happen at ihra races. wonder if that is true?

[Michael Beard]

Originally Posted by Toby Lang

This isn't that big of a deal. The video camera just catches the stage light as it's going out and the red light as it's coming on. Here are just a few examples I found. There are plenty more.

Not a big deal? That is a HUGE deal! With incandescent stage bulbs, it is completely plausible to see the red light prior to the Stage light *appearing* to be out, due to the amount of time that an incandescent bulb retains glow after the power to it ceases. This should NOT be the case with an LED! The stage light going out and red light coming on should appear simulatenous at best. If there was a visibly discernible difference, then the stage light should appear to go out before the red light, not the other way around.

Seeing multiple instances of the red light coming on before the stage light going out makes me MORE concerned, not less.

My question to you is: How does the system know if you are a half inch behind the beam?

That'd be a question for Foster.

Old stories:
http://www.competitionplus.com/drag-...-not-red-light

http://www.competitionplus.com/drag-...tem-guard-beam

In the comments section, there was a claim that it happened at Charlotte to multiple cars. So it's guard beams one day, and camera flashes the next...

[Toby Lang]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

Not a big deal? That is a HUGE deal! With incandescent stage bulbs, it is completely plausible to see the red light prior to the Stage light *appearing* to be out, due to the amount of time that an incandescent bulb retains glow after the power to it ceases. This should NOT be the case with an LED! The stage light going out and red light coming on should appear simulatenous at best. If there was a visibly discernible difference, then the stage light should appear to go out before the red light, not the other way around.

Seeing multiple instances of the red light coming on before the stage light going out makes me MORE concerned, not less.

Well, both the Brand and Mason red lights happened with the incandescent stage bulbs. And in the DeFrank video, you can see the stage lights are on only in the frame where the red light is starting to come on. So it does happen faster with the LED bulbs. If you had a camera that took more frames per second, I'm sure you could see it on every red light. Most video cameras only take 30 FPS.

They could change the programing to make sure the stage light is completely off before they turn the red light on. The program probably turns the red light on first and then turns the stage light off. Depending on how fast the computer is, there is going to be a little delay.

As somebody said before, they need to overhaul the timing equipment. Starting with a complete rewrite of the software.

[Michael Beard]

Originally Posted by Toby Lang

The program probably turns the red light on first and then turns the stage light off. Depending on how fast the computer is, there is going to be a little delay.

I'd like to see an explanation of how and why the program would be designed that way, if that were the case. The stage light is not a function of the red light. The red light is a function of the stage light in certain circumstances (ie., green light not on, or deep stage foul)

If stage = 0 , then red = 1.

With the exception of a deep stage foul or guard beam trigger, there is no reason for the red light to EVER precede the stage light being off.



What were the results of the flash and infrared triggers testing at Pomona following the race?

[James Packer]

If the guard beam is tripped while the pre stage and stage beams are blocked (car staged),the computer thinks the car has moved and starts the clocks. If this happens before the green comes on the red light will be turned on then the pre stage and stage lights will be turned off until the clocks are reset. I believe either something blocked the guard beam or the beam was lost/missing long enough to trigger the red lights for Jimmy Defrank, Mason, Kurt Johnson, and Jack Beckman. It also happened to me in 2011 at a local bracket race.

I don't see how a camera flash had anything to do with these red lights at all unless an intense light or flash could possibly drowned out or weaken the infrared beam so the guard beam sensor doesn't recieve it, but I doubt it. Other possibilities are a bad sensor, bad connection/wiring, or some computer glich. However drivers don't need a flash blinding them so I applaud NHRA for removing that problem.

Compulink needs a recording device that monitors all the sensors during a race so a problem like this could be traced. It would have to be able to read and write at the same time sort of like a DVR opperates.

It would be nice to get a straight answer from NHRA or Compulink when issues like this comes up or at least fix the problem so no one else is becomes a victim of the mysterious red light.