What's wrong with Stock?

[Pedigo Perf]

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

Okay. It takes same amount of total time to run x number of cars, no matter how many in each individual class.. I get this but now they're back in the eliminator beating up on the old cars.

Solution? Put an X in front of the class designation on the "new" cars.
NO heads up runs between X and non X cars..
Yes I just opened up that can of worms.

This would make sense. Now what defines the FX designation? How about anything that has a production run of less than 500 per year, and/or no VIN. That way you leave the door open for a new real production car with a fairly realistic set of stock production car specs being able to compete. (unless NHRA screws with the HP)

Tracy

[FS Fan]

How about all cars, new old or otherwise, get factored what they actually make? This way new cars off the dealer lots could feel they have a chance and more manufacturers might want to sponsor cars that actually sound like they are making impressive horsepower numbers. I don't see Comp Cams wanting to run an ad stating a Stocker with their stuff makes 255hp when it's really making close to 500.

NHRA has the mph and weights, it's a simple formula to recalculate horsepower for all combos quarterly.

Weight breaks and indexes would have to be adjusted obviously.

[Run to Rund]

Looking at cost issues, bringing out new engine stuff for 5 year old cars, supercharged cars going against carbureted cars, etc. leads me to think stock might be/become bracket racing with more rules as to the mods you are allowed. Whether you are crafty, careful, or wealthy, more mods or advantages from factory ratings, it all comes down to trying to run fast but not quite too fast. Then, your competitor buys something else and is a bit faster, and everyone has to step up with cam, rockers, brakes, etc. Some combinations are never seen because their factory HP rating was too high compared to other combinations, and NHRA doesn't bother to level that playing field.

So, to level the playing field, keep costs reasonable, and ensure enough cars are in the field, you come down to bracket racing with more rules about what you can modify or change. Is that what you want?

[Mile High]

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

Okay. It takes same amount of total time to run x number of cars, no matter how many in each individual class.. I get this but now they're back in the eliminator beating up on the old cars.

Solution? Put an X in front of the class designation on the "new" cars.
NO heads up runs between X and non X cars..
Yes I just opened up that can of worms.

This is a real good idea. Simple and with an "X" it's now a drivers race. 2008 and newer, no vin you get an "X".

Jeff - Just a fan

[FS Fan]

Originally Posted by Run to Rund

leads me to think stock might be/become bracket racing with more rules as to the mods you are allowed.

I think there is a strong argument to make that Stock is mostly a bracket race already. It's rather rare that there is a heads up run for an eliminator champion. While this thread was started to express the opinion that new cars are the problem with Stock, I could easily argue that the fifty odd classes are a major problem with Stock. There is very little heads up racing outside of class events. Even at Indy there was 31 Stock class runoffs, 19 were 4 cars or less, only 7 required more than 3 rounds including both FS classes. Those numbers are up since NHRA implemented the combo stick and auto, which I really like.

If someone is trying to "fix" the class how does heads-up racing factor into that?

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by Mile High

This is a real good idea. Simple and with an "X" it's now a drivers race. 2008 and newer, no vin you get an "X".

Jeff - Just a fan

Just making suggestions.

Here's a few more:

NHRA , Do the X thing for 5 years and see where you're at then..

Only one new FX combo per year, per manufacturer

No retrofits to five year old FX combos.

Quit buying ridiculously low HP ratings at the expense of your long time ,loyal
customers.

[Jeff Teuton]

OK, so we got Indy fixed. Shoot NHRA, Shoot all the FS people, Shoot the Hot Dog Stands, they were terrible, Burn the AHFS, Present these 486 ideas to NHRA, but wait, we shot them. Let Bruce have his way and make NHRA dissappear and we won't have a sanction. We can just race each with shoe polish. Maybe we need to vote on it, but wait, who can vote? Drivers, probably; Owners, probably; Keyboard racers; why not. Maybe we need the Chuck Rayburn rule; if you don't have a car or haven't raced in 2 years, you got no vote. I know; let's go back to 1958 (my first race). Street tires 4" wide on a good day, mufflers, take the hub caps off, take the spare out and jack, who needs scales, any fuel that will fire, sleep under the race car you drove to the track, always run in pairs so a chain will get both cars home. Or maybe everyone should have a 69 Camaro which you can buy completely new in parts, and I bet you can't build it for the price of a new car. I think someone on here said there were 71 new cars at Indy, I wonder how many new 69 Camaro's were there. Now, how about a new thread on what to do with the 23 or so other races. Sure the FS needs some attention, but never throw out the baby with the bathwater which seems to be the theme here. I have some ideas (I always got some ideas), but I ain't going on this thread. Too many Great Whites here for this seal to swim in.

[Lyn Smith]

I've got a idea and it is pretty simple.At Indy everyone who is entered runs in the eliminator.Now all you have to worry about is getting enough grading points to get entered before it is full.

[Carguy49]

Quit buying ridiculously low HP ratings at the expense of your long time ,loyal customers.

Mark, I borrowed 1 of your suggestions and did some checking.

Since Scott Burton's name has been mentioned I used that class (B/SA) as an example. I am sure that there are others.

The record as it stands is 10.49 and Scott ran 10.273. Obviously a very good run for his combination. Four cars, including Joey Wilkes @ 9.841, ran quicker than Scott. All 4 cars are 2014 models, 3 Camaros and 1 Mustang.

I know it seems redundant, but maybe that is where much of the problem lies, NHRA buying bogus H.P. ratings by the new cars. And yes it's been going on for several years. I remember the F.I. years of the nineties, or did it start in the late 80's. Probably several before that, but we are talking about the new (2008 and newer) cars.

[Nick Heath]

Mark, I think you have a lot of great ideas!

The idea of having all "FX" cars in a separate eliminator is nice, but aside from Indy, how often are the "FX" cars preventing others from making the field? How often are there enough of them to make a quality show?

I think that NHRA wants to grow the FSS into something bigger, maybe even a professional or semi-professional category outside of Stock. The catch is, the FSS needs to be heads up, or with a limited number of categories (e.g. FS/A and FS/B) to put on the best show.
If we have FS/A, FS/B, FS/C, FS/D, FS/E, FS/F... for every factory combination and run them together like Comp Eliminator, would that really appeal to the masses? We would end up with Luke Ubelhor beating Chris Holbrook or a 352 CJ with a stick beating Bruno Massel...

I say, keep the FS/A and FS/B categories in Stock and run them like a SS Modified class, where the AHFS triggers an index reduction rather than HP addition.
Then maybe you have A/FX, B/FX, C/FX, D/FX for today's A/SA, C/SA, etc. combinations. But I guarantee you there would still be complaining when a factory combination that hasn't been touched (e.g. a stick combination) goes -1.40 under, even though it's in an FX class!

I'm still of the belief that if the HP ratings were correct from the start, 75% of the problem would be gone (how you get them correct is an entirely different discussion...).
Case in point - after Indy, the aforementioned B/SA COPO is now a natural BB/SA COPO. That particular combination will never again beat up on an older car in A/SA or B/SA. Could Chevrolet come out with another "FX" combination @ 380hp that runs B/SA next year? Absolutely, but doesn't that just prove that the entire system is flawed, far beyond the factory cars?

Forgive me for going off topic here, but look at any of Bob Shaw's combinations over the years, the 350 Chevy trucks, Larry Hill's truck with a stick, the fleet of 302 Ford 2bbls, the Dodge Dakotas from the early 00s, the LS1s and LT1s...
All of those guys deserve all of the credit they've ever gotten for going fast - but you can't convince me that those combinations didn't benefit from being in the class guide at their OEM HP rating.
Just like if I built a 352 Cobra Jet tomorrow, I would benefit from it being in the class guide at the so called 285hp "OEM" HP rating.