Stock Suggestion # 1

[Qwikpony]

That is the whole point. The goal is to keep your Olds out here racing with the new cars and you not having to worry about travelling 400+ miles, spending $1000.00 (minimum if the race is nearby) only to get blasted by an .850 light and 4 car lengths in the first round. The older cars should always have a place in this class and NHRA should realize that if most racers are happy with the system, they will show up to race (which equals entry fee $$$$). The car counts have been slowly dwindling over the past few years at most races except Indy. The ALL RUN field won't happen because it takes the time allocated to other portions of the weekend that NHRA has scheduled ( not to mention increased possibility of further delays from oil downs, etc.).

[Greg Hill]

Originally Posted by 442OLDS

The first part is easily fixed with an ALL RUN field........Done.

The second part is the luck of the draw.

I race a 1970 Olds that is rated 10 horsepower less than the factory rated it.

I could have to race a 1970 Chevy LT1 that is rated 35 horsepower less than the factory rated it.

Is this fair? I really don't think so,but if it happens,you take your lumps and go to the next race.Stock will never be "fair"

You could also have to race another 70 Olds, or a 400 Pontiac, or a 340 Chrysler, or a 390 Ford, or a 396 Chevy and you would lose to them also. If you choose not to do the work or spend the money to make your car fast that is your choice. What upsets some of us is that if you have a fast old car that you have worked on and have spent the money on you can still be 4 or 5 tenths or more behind a new car in your same class because they may be 100 hp soft.

[442OLDS]

Originally Posted by Greg Hill

You could also have to race another 70 Olds, or a 400 Pontiac, or a 340 Chrysler, or a 390 Ford, or a 396 Chevy and you would lose to them also. If you choose not to do the work or spend the money to make your car fast that is your choice. What upsets some of us is that if you have a fast old car that you have worked on and have spent the money on you can still be 4 or 5 tenths or more behind a new car in your same class because they may be 100 hp soft.

I see your point,but my point is that IF I chose to spend the money to make my car as fast as possible,I would STILL not run as fast as another 1970 car that is rated 35 horsepower less than the factory rated it.No way,No how!

If you are 2,3,or 5 tenths or even a second behind in a heads up race does it really matter?

[Qwikpony]

You will never know unless you try. However, it sounds like your Olds is not in a class that is flooded with the newer cars. The ultimate goal is to have a fair and equitable eliminator for every car in every class where everybody has a fair chance to win. Maybe you should petiton NHRA to take a few ponies off your combination. Then, you could run faster and not spend more than the cost of an envelope and a stamp.That is like finding free horsepower and your car could be lighter (easier on parts) which is a win for you in more ways than one.

[Paul Precht]

Originally Posted by 442OLDS

The first part is easily fixed with an ALL RUN field........Done.

The second part is the luck of the draw.

I race a 1970 Olds that is rated 10 horsepower less than the factory rated it.

I could have to race a 1970 Chevy LT1 that is rated 35 horsepower less than the factory rated it.

Is this fair? I really don't think so,but if it happens,you take your lumps and go to the next race.Stock will never be "fair"

Stock will never be fair because of the politics, any 10 year old kid can do the math but NHRA seems to struggle with the simplest of problems, it's pretty sad but it's their playground, if we don't like it we can stay home.

[Alan Roehrich]

I've read a lot of replies to this thread, and read them several times. I keep seeing people talking about "lighter cars breaking less parts", and "lighter cars being faster", among other things. I do not believe some of you understand what Jeff Teuton is proposing.

I suggest you read this again, and pay very close attention:

Originally Posted by Jeff Teuton

I propose this on the thought of speeding up the old cars, not slowing down the new cars. I would take 10% HP off all combos and keep the shipping weights where they are. Cars 2007 and older. It appears the LS1 needs something less than 10%. Indexes stay the same. The assumption is AHFS in it's present form or similar is here to stay. I can't download the Class Guides (new computer and over my grade level) or I would post some examples. Maybe some of you could do that for your combo or one you are familiar. How about the 396 cars. There are a bunch of them. A 3400 lb shipping weight car currently @ 400 hp is a B/S car @ 8.5. The same car @ 360 which is less the 10% would have a factor of 9.44 or C/S almost D/S. Somewhere around 2 classes. Just a thought, but I have been proposing this for a few years. Who knows, might find an ear out there.

Don't get me wrong. I like Jeff Teuton, I respect him, he's a great guy, he's one of my favorite people, I always enjoy seeing him at the track or at a trade show, I always enjoy talking to him, even though we often do not agree at all. The fact that we disagree completely on this subject does not change that at all.

You will not end up with a lighter car under his HP factor reduction proposal. You will not end up with a faster car. You will end up with a car that runs further under the index. In a lower class. Temporarily.

Jeff asked for an example, so here is one very similar to what he started with.

Take a current, very popular combination, the 1969 Camaro 396/375 with aluminum heads. Currently, this car is a natural A car, with a HP factor of 405HP, and a curb weight of 3337 pounds. Currently, it is at 8.24 pounds per factored HP, which being between 8.0 and 8.5 is a natural A/SA. So, Jeff Teuton is proposing to take 10% off of the current 405HP factor. As such, 405HP, minus 40.5HP, or 10%, equals 364.5HP, which rounds up to 365HP. Your curb weight remains the same, 3337 pounds. So, 3337 pounds, divided by the new HP factor of 365HP, yields a factor of 9.14 pounds per HP, which being between 9.0 and 9.5 pounds per HP, makes it a natural C/SA combination, you can run B/SA, C/SA, or D/SA . So, your A/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0, now becomes a C/SA 1969 Camaro, that runs 10.0. Your index changes from 11.00, to 11.40. So, where you were running 1.0 under the index, now you can run 1.4 under the index. And when you run 1.4 under the index, the next Tuesday, you get a nice little gift from NHRA, of 26.46HP, rounded up to 27HP, putting you right up at 392HP, well over 1/2 way back to where you started. And we all know the combination is capable of 1.1 to 1.2 under right now in a fast car. So when someone in a C/SA 69 Camaro 396/375 aluminum head car runs one all the way out, well, I think you know what happens then.

Now, I'm not seeing the real gift here. You pretty much just drop a couple of classes, so you can run further under. So now, you have to sand bag, drop at 1000', or what ever you need to do to kill over 2 tenths, (that's if you started with a 1.0 under car) just to avoid an instant 3.25% hit, and hope everyone else does the same, to protect your combination. And they won't. The AHFS is going to get you, and hang that HP back on you, either by instant hits when someone wants to or needs to go fast, or by constantly hitting the trigger for an adjustment for the average.

He's not proposing to reduce your weight, and make your car faster, he's proposing to move your car down 2-3 classes so you can run 1.4 to 1.6 under the index. Which, since you will NOT be immune to the AHFS like the factory cars are at some races, will earn you that same HP right back.

You're car is not going to be lighter, so it breaks fewer parts, and goes faster. Your car is just going to move down a few classes so it can run further under the index. For a very short while, until someone with your combination starts getting you some nice gifts from NHRA on Tuesday mornings.

If you think that's a good solution, well, go right ahead and support it. I guess if you want your good running A/SA car to become a real fast C/SA car, it works okay. So long as everyone protects it. From where I sit, it looks like worse than where we are right now. This is a very short term temporary solution. It has zero effect on the factory race cars that now cause the problem. Zero effect. Nothing changes for them.


If anyone successfully convinces NHRA to do anything about the problem, and that in itself is a huge "if", they're going to do one thing, one time. If it doesn't work, oh well. So, be real careful what you ask for, or what someone asks for on your behalf.

[Andrew Hill]

Originally Posted by 442OLDS

I see your point,but my point is that IF I chose to spend the money to make my car as fast as possible,I would STILL not run as fast as another 1970 car that is rated 35 horsepower less than the factory rated it.No way,No how!

Would it make you happier if I ran the 1972 combo that is rated 60 hp more than it was from the factory? I promise it would be just as fast.

[442OLDS]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hill

Would it make you happier if I ran the 1972 combo that is rated 60 hp more than it was from the factory? I promise it would be just as fast.

When I used that combo as an example, I wasn't even thinking of you.I was talking about a combo that actually competed at and won a National event this year.

Anyways, my point is that any "solution" to the problem should include old cars against old cars AS WELL AS old cars versus new cars.

[Pedigo Perf]

Originally Posted by 442OLDS

Anyways, my point is that any "solution" to the problem should include old cars against old cars AS WELL AS old cars versus new cars.

You can send a letter to NHRA and get your HP reduced. That solution exists now. Or you can spend money like a drunk sailor until you get fast enough. Old cars aren't the issue as I see it.

[442OLDS]

Originally Posted by Pedigo Perf

You can send a letter to NHRA and get your HP reduced. That solution exists now.

Easier said than done.It requires manipulating the system.If you choose to race your car as fast as it will go, you ruin the average.Some people still like to race their car.