Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races

[RPinoski1]

Don't want to get involved with Bruce and Lens bickering or dhould I say discussion. I'm just trying to make sense of this whole HP AHFS thing and the constant clarifications/changes. I took the liberty to cut and paste three different versions that I could locate in the archives and have been published by NHRA Tech Dept. as officialy "explained."

This is the current version taken from the NHRA website today:

A few things I noticed:

1. The counting of ALL CLASS runs has been deleted or "Clarified" from this version.

2. There is no mention of altitude runs in any of the versions.

Shouldn't they be converted to sea level and used for averaging too? I'm not sure if this would be good or bad

3. Seems like "Family of car type" has broadened to include any car with same engine and trans.

I'm not sure if this was the original intent of the AHFS.


Automatic Horsepower Factoring System (AHFS) explained

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The AHFS is used to review and evaluate runs in Stock and Super Stock for possible horsepower adjustments. The review is conducted twice per racing season. The two reviews are compiled individually so the data is not cumulative. Runs included in the AHFS database are limited to final qualifying runs (Q data) and final elimination runs (E data) at NHRA national events only. (At events where class eliminations are run, rounds beyond the first round of class are not included in the AHFS database. Only the first round of class is part of qualifying and therefore is part of the "Q" database.) The "Q" data and "E" data files are the official data gathered by the NHRA timing system and processed through the NHRA Information Technology department. NHRA "Q" data and "E" data are the only data files used for the AHFS.

The first review period includes data from national events 1 through 12 and the second period includes runs from events 13 through 23. The following procedure is used in reviewing run data:

Final qualifying and elimination runs of 1.15 seconds or more, under the index, at NHRA national events will trigger an automatic review. (The combination must make at least two runs of 1.15 or quicker before a review is triggered to prevent a "one time fast run" from triggering the system.) In reviewing runs of 1.15 or more under the index, the database of runs for the engine combination being reviewed are put through three screenings as listed below. The screenings will look for an overall engine family average or class/engine average faster than 1.00-second under. Runs of .50 and slower are not included in calculating the engine or class/engine averages:


Engine family average: The overall engine average for all cars, regardless of class, running the particular engine combination being reviewed are included in this screening.
Class/engine average where engine is run: The class/engine average of the car running the specific combination in the class that triggered the review is studied.
Body style and transmission type: Also considered in the above two screening processes are body style of the engine combination being reviewed and transmission type. Adjustments are only in effect for the specific car model being evaluated. The body style are generally classified by the OEM auto manufacturers' definition of "platform", i.e., the Camaro and Firebird body are both based on the same platform and therefore considered the same with regard to body-style classification. In some instances, however, more than one body style will trigger a review. With regards to transmission type, if the class average triggers the review, the adjustment would be for classes with the type of transmission triggering the change. However, if an engine family average triggers the review, the adjustment would be for all transmission types.
If either the engine family average or the class/engine average are found to be faster than 1.00-second under, a change will be initiated.

To more clearly illustrate how the AHFS program affects a given combination, the following is a hypothetical evaluation in Stock class for a 305-cubic-inch, 215 factory rated horsepower, fuel-injected Camaro during a review period:

Two K/SA Camaros running this combination ran 1.214- and 1.187- second under the index, triggering a review by the committee. As per the procedure outlined above, the overall engine average is analyzed first. Upon reviewing the engine average made by the 305/215/241 FI combination, 10 runs had been recorded (2 in K/SA and 8 in L/SA) with a total engine average of .945-second under. Because the overall engine average did not hit the required 1.00 under, the combination did not warrant a horsepower adjustment based on overall engine average.

The next step, per the procedure outlined above, is a class/engine review. The class of the car that actually triggered the review was K/SA. The class review revealed that K/SA had a class/engine average for the combination in question of 1.201-second under, therefore surpassing the 1.00-second-under requirement and signaling a horsepower adjustment for all 305/215/241 FI Camaros.

An important element to note and one most often misunderstood by racers is that although a K/SA Camaro affected the change, the L/SA 305/215/241 FI Camaros that run this combination also received a horsepower adjustment. The reason is that a specific combination can run in more than one class based on NHRA rules; therefore, all cars with the specific engine combination, transmission and body style will be affected.

Once the need for an adjustment is determined, the following sliding-scale formula, based on a percentage of horsepower, is used to calculate the horsepower increase:

Under Index Horsepower Increase Index Change
1.150-1.299 1.25% -.05
1.300-1.399 2.25% -.10
1.400-or greater 3.25% -.15
(immediate change)


Adjustments are rounded up to the nearest full horsepower even if the fraction is below 0.5 horsepower. As an example, 2.15 horsepower is rounded to 3 horsepower. The quickest run, by the combination being reviewed, is used to determine the adjustment percentage.

Runs of 1.40 or more under the index will be reviewed and adjusted as soon as such runs were made. Runs at divisional events and National Opens are included in the 1.40-second-or-more-under analysis. This is done to better react to any out-of-line indexes or under-horsepowered combinations. Therefore, at all such events, a 3.25 percent horsepower adjustment or index reduction will be initiated immediately. The decision to adjust horsepower or to reduce the index will be at the discretion of the NHRA Tech Department.

[Bruce Noland]

Rich,

You're doing a good job. You are trying to add to the discussion and I appreciate that. Can you please cut'n paste the most recent version of the AHFS from the Lucas Site. That way we can make a comparsion of the different versions of the ahfs.

One other very important point - we have been unable to locate Wesley's grouping of combinations on any nhra site until he released the adjustments July 10, 2007. That is a huge problem for us because we never know what combinations he will add or delete from these groups between review periods.

We really have to sort this mess out and stop this got' ya rule making business. Whether it is intended or not that is the net affect.

[Bruce Noland]

Rich,

Man you are fast with these damn machines. You posted the most current version of the ahfs while I was plunking along on my last post. Thanks.

[Andys dad]

The words "final qualification runs" and "final elimination runs" do not mean that actual final run in each case does it?

Pardon me for being a stickler for the wording.

It does not say all elimination runs or all qualification runs.

[Len Imbrogno]

R. Pinoski,

Yes, you are reading it wrong. Your example of the 1/31/2003 AHFS is not at all correct. What you posted on this wedsite is not what appears on the NHRA website. For some reason, you missed an entire paragraph which fits in above the "class average" paragraph and reads as follows:
ENGINE FAMILY AVERAGE FOR THE SPECIFIC ENGINE COMBINATION BEING REVIEWED. ALL CARS, REGARDLESS OF CLASS, RUNNING THE PARTICULAR ENGINE COMBINATION BEING REVIEWED ARE INCLUDED IN THIS SCREENING.

Bruce, enough is enough. The basic format of the AHFS has not changed since its inception. You are more than welcome to your opinion and I will respect that. I am very sorry that you continue to feel ill-treated because of a horsepower adjustment you received, as a result of your not paying attention to the issue.

As I stated previously on this thread, next week at the PRI show, key NHRA tech personnel will have a meeting to finalize a revised AHFS for racers to see. The new AHFS will most likely have changes to it, therefore, continuing this conversation is a moot point. The tech department will post the revised AHFS after the PRI meeting, on the NHRA website, for all racers to review.

Hope to see some of you at the PRI show. Thank you for your past support and emails, and, thank you for racing NHRA.

[Bruce Noland]

edit.

Len,

I know it is getting a little warm for you in here, but you failed to answer one one very simple question. When did nhra give advance notice that it was going to group such a large number of dissimilar vehicles together for reviews? The ahfs makes a point of connecting the Firebird and Camaro but it is not believable for us to think that Corvettes, Omegas, Appolos, Cutlas and Chevelles should be connected for reviews. This list includes everything from wagons to Corvettes. Doesn't it make sense that nhra should list the vehicle combinations for the racers instead of offering generic statement.
Please tell us when you published that information?

edit,

Len,
I missed your earlier post about the 2003 ahfs. This statement at issue has not been in the ahfs since it's origin.To clarify your statement, I believe you meant that the statement's origin was from 2003. My issues are not with the 2003 version. My issues are with the latest version which actually uses that statement to justify the huge number of dissimilar combinations that are now grouped together. And of course nhra never bothered to tell us they were going to group these combinations. I think you need to answer that question. You can attempt to make me look like the bad guy for pressing you for an answer but in the end it's your responsibility to get answers for our questions. We all know you have failed to answer a very simple question.

Also, the current ahfs may resemble the original but that is about it. It sure functions in a different manner.

[Andys dad]

Ok not 100% - good

Since I am up waiting on football I am going to give you my opinion. Now admittedly you will figure I am wrong but here goes. I thought NHRA was all about (in stock) hp to weight.

I do not know when we decide the same engine in a different car should have less hp. It is ridiculous. I have raced the Chevelle with the same combo I have in the Camaro. You know what the engine did not tell me it deserved more hp in the new combo.

The AHFS can not be perfect, it needs and deserves change. Any system should undergo regular changes from its initial format in order to accept input and reality adjustments as times, equipment and technology improve. The system must improve overtime.

As to whether NHRA is a democracy, I would say it is not, it is a rule establishment organization focused on safety.


When will some thing like this be addressed - The Mopar combo in my class that has 40 more cubic inches and weighs an astonishing 400 pounds less. Both are 4 barrels. No chance in class or heads up. Either gigantic difference (40 cubic inches or 400 pounds) would be enough.

The best game in town is avoiding the AHFS hit. "Take care of your HP (AHFS)" is a comon phrase by most who are at the top of the performance curve.

But like it use to be in the old west - there is always a faster gun.

[Larry Hill]

All my opinions are for stock. Count all runs at divisional and national events. Use 1.15 under as trigger. Award points for class rounds won, 10pts. per round, 5 bonus points for class win @ indy. Qualifying points for top 16. Maximum 100lbs. over minimum weight. National opens will not count. If car goes 1.25 under automatic teardown [.1 grace] at nationals and divisionals. If 1.25 under car fails run not counted for AHFS. IF SPEED AND ET. DO NOT MATCH NO TICKET AT THE ET.BOOTH DURING QUALIFING AND CLASS ELIMINATIONS.
Larry

[Jeff Lee]

Originally Posted by Larry Hill

All my opinions are for stock. Count all runs at divisional and national events. Use 1.15 under as trigger. Award points for class rounds won, 10pts. per round, 5 bonus points for class win @ indy. Qualifying points for top 16. Maximum 100lbs. over minimum weight. National opens will not count. If car goes 1.25 under automatic teardown [.1 grace] at nationals and divisionals. If 1.25 under car fails run not counted for AHFS. IF SPEED AND ET. DO NOT MATCH NO TICKET AT THE ET.BOOTH DURING QUALIFING AND CLASS ELIMINATIONS.
Larry

I'm all for it as it is similar to what I proposed. However, if you want "all runs" to count (Divisional included), there needs to be the possibility of a tear down. For example, you wouldn't want to receive HP in your class because some yahoo showed up at a divisional one day with a pop-up piston 440 or maybe even a 500 crate motor shortblock!

The reasons I said lower index .500 and make the AHFS start @ 1.00 is to basically make the AHFS a non issue. But throw all the heads up runs I proposed into the mix and the AHFS may be necessary. Especially if the 1.15 under players of today are really 1.50+ under players. If your not, then the AHFS would not be an issue.
You will see WOT racing under my proposal.

[RPinoski1]

Here are the links from the NHRA website. Let me know what I miss quoted.

http://www.nhra.com/wklynews/2000new...er/112202.html

http://www.nhra.com/2003/sportsman/n...ry/013101.html

Here is a proposed change: http://www.nhra.com/2003/sportsman/n...st/081702.html

Here is the audit of the guides announcement.
http://www.nhra.com/content/sportsma...9836&zoneid=85

Finally here is the current AHFS as posted on the NHRA site.

http://www.nhra.com/tech_specs/ahfs.html

Just to add to this.....There should be a links page on CLASS RACER to all of the changes as they are posted on the NHRA site. I know if I miss a day of reading on numerous sites "working on my car" I might miss a crucial rule "clarif-interpretation-change" that might effect all of us racers.

For ex....The accepted crankshaft clarification statement which is way different from what the rule book reads. This one really through me for a loop. I realized I was Waaaay out of the loop when I read this!

http://www.nhra.com/content/sportsma...9848&zoneid=85

Have a great off season...........

GO HAWAII WARRIORS