Lookin for NHRA Stock Class ET/MPH from 1970-71

[Dwight Southerland]

For your inquiry, here is what I found:


302-290 Z28 315 rating
427-425hp L72 435 rating
427-420hp L88/ZL1 480 rating
302-290hp Boss 330 rating
340-275hp MoPar 310 rating
426-425hp Street Hemi 480 rating
455-370hp Olds W30 380 rating
350-255hp 1969 Chevrolet 265 rating
400-370 1969 Pontiac RAIV 380 rating


Your '62 Pontiac 421-405hp combination was listed with and without the lightweight components, which we do not have in the current Class Guide. In 1969, C/S was an 8.50 break; in 1970, C/S was an 8.00 break. The lightweight component car would have made C/S easily @ 8.57 factor.


Odd items:
1) I cannot find a listing for the '68 Dart SS Hemi car.
2) The ZL1 '69 Corvette is in the guide
3) The LS7 '70 Corvette is in the guide

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

For your inquiry, here is what I found:


302-290 Z28 315 rating
427-425hp L72 435 rating
427-420hp L88/ZL1 480 rating
302-290hp Boss 330 rating
340-275hp MoPar 310 rating
426-425hp Street Hemi 480 rating
455-370hp Olds W30 380 rating
350-255hp 1969 Chevrolet 265 rating
400-370 1969 Pontiac RAIV 380 rating


Your '62 Pontiac 421-405hp combination was listed with and without the lightweight components, which we do not have in the current Class Guide. In 1969, C/S was an 8.50 break; in 1970, C/S was an 8.00 break. The lightweight component car would have made C/S easily @ 8.57 factor.


Odd items:
1) I cannot find a listing for the '68 Dart SS Hemi car.
2) The ZL1 '69 Corvette is in the guide
3) The LS7 '70 Corvette is in the guide

Thanks Dwight this is filling in a lot of details.
Those factored HP make a lot of those cars fit the class they ran in.
I did read that the 340/275 was factored to 310hp in Nov.67.
Also read that the 426/425 Hemi was factored at 465hp circa 1966-68 somewhere, so must have moved up to a 480hp factor later.


Agreed on those "allowed" combos that never existed - the Hydromatic sedan deliveries, and all those automatic HiPo Fords. All the 352HiPo, 390HiPo, 406, and 427solid Fords I know of were stick shift only except for a few dozen 64 Thunderbolts. But all those engines were allowed with automatics behind them. Oh well.


On the Pontiac Saga - I think I am on track to solve part of it.
The mystery comes from this story on the 1963 Swiss Cheese Packer / Masales car- says here it set the C/S record IN 1963 at 12.27 at 114.6mph.


http://www.supercars.net/blog/1963-p...-swiss-cheese/


However, I found this link detailing the class records as of June 1968:


http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/...ecords.298236/


Note the C/S=9.00 record is listed as a 1962 421 Super Duty, exactly the same et/mph, 12.27 at 114.6.
So it looks like indeed that record was still standing but was set by a 1962 Cat, not a 1963 Swiss Cheese Cat.


That 1962 Cat (maybe it was in fact Masales, I cant find that info) would likely have weighed at least 3650 even with aluminum, putting it into SS/S in 1962 but C/S=9.00 in 1968 (or today, since todays upper brackets are the 1968 brackets.


The numbers jive with this story - the 1962 Cat held the 9.00 record as late as 1968 when C/S=9.00. I suspect the supercars.net link is mixing up a 1963 Swiss Cat with a 1962 Aluminum Cat, perhaps both Masales cars.


I don't think the Swiss Cheese Cats were ever allowed in STOCK, not 1963, not 1968, not ever, as only a few were built, 14 IIRC. Stuck in A/FX or B/FX at least in NHRA. There were over 150 Aluminum Cats so those were allowed in Stock.


Some good info in this link too, Milt Schornack's Bobcat book, notes Masales driving in 1962, and the ballasting (150+Lb spare tire) used in the 1963 Swiss Cheese Cats. At 3300lb, the unballasted Swiss Cats could run A/FX, but I think they were typically ballasted up (in the rear I bet) to B/FX=9.00 lb/CID weight. The real Swiss Cheese times I have found range from 11.69-12.59 at 117-123mph, so that 114.6mph always seemed a bit slow to me for a Swiss car.
.
https://books.google.com/books?id=P8...les%22&f=false


I am trying to figure this out one snipet at a time so of course comments welcome if anybody remembers details.
It brings back my memories of hearing on the car radio:
"Sundaaaaaaaaaaaay, at Detroit Dragwaaaaaaaaaay"
At least I got to run there a couple times. Long gone today.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

For your inquiry, here is what I found:


302-290 Z28 315 rating
427-425hp L72 435 rating
427-420hp L88/ZL1 480 rating
302-290hp Boss 330 rating
340-275hp MoPar 310 rating
426-425hp Street Hemi 480 rating
455-370hp Olds W30 380 rating
350-255hp 1969 Chevrolet 265 rating
400-370 1969 Pontiac RAIV 380 rating


Your '62 Pontiac 421-405hp combination was listed with and without the lightweight components, which we do not have in the current Class Guide. In 1969, C/S was an 8.50 break; in 1970, C/S was an 8.00 break. The lightweight component car would have made C/S easily @ 8.57 factor.


Odd items:
1) I cannot find a listing for the '68 Dart SS Hemi car.
2) The ZL1 '69 Corvette is in the guide
3) The LS7 '70 Corvette is in the guide

Hi Dwight et al yes I am still working on my old 1960s NHRA compilation.


There is another pair I am having trouble with, maybe you have a way to look up the NHRA weights and (Factored) HP for these cars back circa 1964-65.


Two engines:
* MaxWedge 426/425 - I am assuming this was not factored so stayed at 425 even though it made a bit more than that.
* 427/425 HiRiser - I am using a factored HP of 465 just to make things fit but that is a guess. Today's NHRA factors the HiRiser between 420-460 hp depending on class. Reality was it was over 500 hp even back in 1964-65, so I wondered how NHRA factored it back then.


Car weights:
Mainly looking for what NHRA said back in 1964-65 about the LightWeight Galaxie (LWG). NHRA today has the 1963 LWG at 3320 lb, and the 1964 LWG at 3748 lb. The bodies are near identical, so that's over 400 lb of difference. I know some of the lightweighting parts changed but here is my logic in asking this stuff:


* The meager real 1964-66 data I have on the 64 HiRiser LWG shows speeds of 121 mph for the auto trans (a doggy Lincoln unit) an 123-126mph for the stick car. That's getting up there near Thunderbolt speeds, so I wondered if the car was really as heavy as 3750 or if the old spec was different.
* In Larry Davis' book, I know he is not a Ford buy but he says on pg99: "However, the LWG fell right into the extreme top of AA/S, where they not only were competitive, they dominated".
Well, I get a W/P of 3748/465=8.06, which is a long way from being at the top of the AA=7.00-8.69 class. So either the 64 LWG spec was quite a bit lighter than 3748, or the factored HP was quite a bit more than 465, or the quote is just wrong.


Wondered if the OLD NHRA weights and factored HP could shed any light on this. Thanks for your patience for those who read this far.

[Dwight Southerland]

Interesting points that you bring out. Here is what I have found in the 1970 Classification Guide


1963 LWG is the same as currently listed. 7.82 factor and 425hp. That makes the shipping weight 3324 for a Galaxie 500 2dr hdtp. Probably the published weight to NHRA was 3325, but so goes rounding. I have seen the claimed shipping weight to be 3270 and 3300 in other publications over the years. An interesting fact about these cars is that the LW components were available on a wide variety of car models and body styles, from a 300 2dr sedan to a Galaxie 500 XL 2dr hdtp.


1964 lightweight component car. Only listed for a Galaxie 500 2dr hdtp. The current factor of 8.93 and 420hp makes the shipping weight 3750 lbs. In the 1970 Class Guide, the factor is 8.33. If the power rating back then was 425, then the shipping weight is 3540 lbs. However, I have no documentation that tells be what the engine was rated back then. But, if you assume that the 3750 shipping weight is correct, then the power rating was 450 (3750 / 450 = 8.333...), which in probably the case, since the Thunderbolt has a power-to-weight factor of 7.13 in the old book, and that would have the shipping weight at 3208, very close to the 3206 calculated from today's Class Guide.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Interesting points that you bring out. Here is what I have found in the 1970 Classification Guide


1963 LWG is the same as currently listed. 7.82 factor and 425hp. That makes the shipping weight 3324 for a Galaxie 500 2dr hdtp. Probably the published weight to NHRA was 3325, but so goes rounding. I have seen the claimed shipping weight to be 3270 and 3300 in other publications over the years. An interesting fact about these cars is that the LW components were available on a wide variety of car models and body styles, from a 300 2dr sedan to a Galaxie 500 XL 2dr hdtp.


1964 lightweight component car. Only listed for a Galaxie 500 2dr hdtp. The current factor of 8.93 and 420hp makes the shipping weight 3750 lbs. In the 1970 Class Guide, the factor is 8.33. If the power rating back then was 425, then the shipping weight is 3540 lbs. However, I have no documentation that tells be what the engine was rated back then. But, if you assume that the 3750 shipping weight is correct, then the power rating was 450 (3750 / 450 = 8.333...), which in probably the case, since the Thunderbolt has a power-to-weight factor of 7.13 in the old book, and that would have the shipping weight at 3208, very close to the 3206 calculated from today's Class Guide.

Thanks again Dwight that confirms what was said over on fordfe.com. Two folks over there had a 64 LWG and confirmed the car was 3750 with no driver, and could make that weight almost full of gas too. The old factor they remembered was 450-460hp (450hp in the 1973 book).


The 460hp makes sense as an earlier factor, because using "only" 450hp would have put the Thunderbolt into AA/S, so NHRA probably rated the engine at 460hp deliberately just to put the Thunderbolt barely into S/S with the Hemi, so the big Galaxie stayed in AA/S.


450-460hp seems low for a prepped 427 HiRiser, but as I Gonkulate both engines, 425hp was equally low for a 426 MW Stage 3. Both of those are factored at about 80% of what they actually made as prepped, to turn the MPH they turned.


I am finding that to be pretty much true, whether its the Tri-5 283s, the LM1, the z28, the 427 HR, the MaxWedge, etc, a "winning" combo engine typically was only NHRA rated at 80%-85% of what the prepped engine actually Gonkulates to.


If the engine was overrated, of course the combo would not win. But even if it was rated "right on", it would still lose out - there were so many good combos way underrated (80%-85%) that they dominated most of the classes.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

For your inquiry, here is what I found:


302-290 Z28 315 rating
427-425hp L72 435 rating
427-420hp L88/ZL1 480 rating
302-290hp Boss 330 rating
340-275hp MoPar 310 rating
426-425hp Street Hemi 480 rating
455-370hp Olds W30 380 rating
350-255hp 1969 Chevrolet 265 rating
400-370 1969 Pontiac RAIV 380 rating


Your '62 Pontiac 421-405hp combination was listed with and without the lightweight components, which we do not have in the current Class Guide. In 1969, C/S was an 8.50 break; in 1970, C/S was an 8.00 break. The lightweight component car would have made C/S easily @ 8.57 factor.


Odd items:
1) I cannot find a listing for the '68 Dart SS Hemi car.
2) The ZL1 '69 Corvette is in the guide
3) The LS7 '70 Corvette is in the guide

Dwight,
I am still working away, up to 1967-70 now and struggling with all those 400 Pontiacs. Wondering if you have time to look up some factors circa those years.
I'm assuming from the above that all the 400ra4, Firebird and Tempest, were factored to 380hp. I am using that 380hp also for the 1968-1/2 Ra2 cars since that "fits" the cars that ran and the engines were so similar.

It seems from 1967-70, Pontiac had a zillion 400's. The stick and auto cars had different cams but the same rated HP. The Tempest and Firebird had the same engines (well at least when they were uncorked for NHRA with open headers & throttles) but the Firebirds were all rated lower.

IN GENERAL, did NHRA up-rate all the Firebirds to their equal Tempest-engine ratings? (It seems the current guides do this but I wonder if they did that right away back in 1967-70 ?)

eg 1967:
Was the "325hp" Firebird RA1 up-rated to the "360hp" Tempest RA1 rating? (which I assume was left as-is at 360)? Were both the stick and auto cam engines left with the same rating?

1968:
So, was the "335hp" Firebird RA1 up-rated to the "360hp" Tempest RA1 rating (which I assume was left as-is at 360)? Were both the stick and auto cam engines left with the same rating?

1968-70
Was the base "330hp" Firebird up-rated to the base "350hp" Tempest rating?

Oddly, today's NHRA rates the 1968 Firebird base "330hp" at 338hp auto, 325hp stick, even though the auto engine had the smaller "066" cam.

1969:
Was the "335hp" Firebird RA3 up-rated to the "366hp" Tempest RA3 rating?

1970:
Was the "345hp" Firebird RA3 up-rated to the "366hp" Tempest RA3 rating?

It seems like, unless the Firebirds were "uprated" to the Tempest ratings, why would anybody ever race a Tempest when the Firebirds has this built-in advantage?

Sorry to be such a bother, trying to make the history as accurate as I can as I try to "Gonkulate" all these cars.

[g moore]

i have a copy of the record page from nat dragster from 1968--1972 if you want a pic. let me know-gary

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by g moore

i have a copy of the record page from nat dragster from 1968--1972 if you want a pic. let me know-gary

Gary,
Yes that would help thanks!
It takes quite a bit of et/mph data to figure out what was going on back then, because some of the runs were "brake light" runs so you cant trust the MPH at all and even the ET was sandbagging. More data helps. I wish I had all those old sheets but I was barely a teenager then.

[Ed Wright]

I should have added above, I went to Indy with Carroll Caudle to help him one year when I didn't have the money to take mine. He picked me up on his way through Tulsa. The Ronca brothers had their '56 there, that thing was a rocket. Mine would never run with that car. I got to thinking I made it sound like I thought the race tracks there were fast (they are), and their car was not. Those guys were bad fast. Sorry if I came across like they weren't. I should give more thought to what I post. Sorry.

[Rich Biebel]

Atco is fast as are most of the northeast tracks in cool weather....

Fastest we ever ran MPH wise in 1970 with our H/S Chevy II was 114++ MPH at York at the spring WCS race......12.20's but did not get the record that day....and we were trying......Just ran out of time and were not given a backup.....

Points were awarded for either ET or MPH and some people tried setting just the MPH end successfully.

One technique was to try and cover as much ground as possible by driving from one side to the other and back staying within the lane....

No a very good idea in a fast car on 7" tires though since they were squirrely at the top end sometimes.......low air, narrow rims....

Even a 12 second car at 110+ could get pretty loose feeling on those tires and rims at the finishline........I did not like it when I drove our car.....