Dommination of FI cars.

[STK 1045]

Tom Turner, I'm not sure if it was your intention but please don't put words in my mouth. I never bad mouthed Zach in any way, nor did I call him a dummy. This is America, we are all entitled to our opinions. Zach's opinions are just as important as anyone elses and he certainly has a right to voice his without getting verbally clobbered. No offense, we class racers need all the competition we can get, and petty name calling and bickering certainly is not going to increase car counts anytime soon. What I merely pointed out was that I had recently purchased a very fast stocker and that any talk of heads up class runs as a debate would take the performance based aspect of Stock and Super Stock and pretty much throw it out the window. Zach had also mentioned the money it takes to be fast. I know. I watched Richard Todd, methodically build his 427 Ford Fairlane into one of the fastest stockers on the planet, and of course, his very successful dyno business in upstate New York from scratch. Let's face it the higher stock classes are becoming rather pricey. If heads up runs were to be eliminated, I could have easily gotten by buying some "stone" and not have to worry about running a faster car in my class heads up. That was my point. By the way, Tom, my name is Frank Hamer Jr., I recently purchased Richard Todd's A/SA 427 Fairlane, from Richard Todd, who is a personal friend of mine. I'm not on here to pick fights or to resort to petty name calling. If we don't actively promote our sport and constantly try to bring "new blood" into it, class racing could possibly end up on the endangered species list. Life is too short. I merely want to race, and of course, enjoy myself racing. See you at the races.

[zach craig]

WOW... Sounds like a bunch of old farts thanking this is still 1980. But the truth is that you are all just a bunch of pro bracket racers who bought or built a class car. If you really thank you r that bad and can make some big power with big money step up n go comp racing. Then you can race heads ups all day. The deal is i love stock n s/s no box racing is my deal but it is just hard 2 race a $45,000 doller car 4 a wopping $1300 bucks. The whole thang neads 2 step up n pay some cash. I am just hoping that avery one can come together class racers, super class racers, bracket racers ake all of us n start 2 git somthing going that pays i dont no about all of you but when it cost $750 a weekend 2 race and all you git is $1300 four the last 15 years somthing neads 2 change.TOM thanks 4 the complament on my driving but you nead 2 wake up and realize you r not warren johnson.

[zach craig]

just saying they r changin avery thang else in stock y not say no heads ups 4 a year and c what happens. There is ways 2 make it work and still make people want a fast car just dont b so old school and open your mind up. dont let nhra drag you around like a 5 year old kid in a store.

[Mark Yacavone]

Speaking of popping and banging:
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...82607023UpwJHj


Speaking of that, someone told me one time you could leave out two parts on a 4GC carb , jet the rear up .010 and pick up a tenth. Of course , I have no first hand knowledge of this.

[Jack Matyas]

Mark--Great shot of "Bits & Pieces"--bring back those days.........


Zach Craig---R U Nutz ??????????


Frank---Welcome to Stock racing and by the way--- bring your wallet as A/SA is a very tough place ! ! ! And you're right-- life is short--enjoy it today .

What is the advantage to having no heads ups in stock class? Is it so you can race in the spotlight with a Pro ET car? Because with no heads up's we don't need to quailify, if thats the case why have any rules. Lets just run pump gas and stock apearing cars. Why do you want to race stock? If you want to race in a nat event why no just win the Bracket finals, and run the race of champions at Pomona. I built a car to run stock because I LIKED THE RULES AND THE GAME. If you don't like the current game sounds like you need to play somewhere else. Guys like you that come into our game are a cancer, because you have your own adjenda and don't care for the wellfare of the class or the sport. Try to race for a year and see how many times you loose a race because of heads up racing. I bet it is less then 5%. You can duck heads ups if you are smart enough, I've been doing it for years and have had some success

Originally Posted by zach craig

just saying they r changin avery thang else in stock y not say no heads ups 4 a year and c what happens. There is ways 2 make it work and still make people want a fast car just dont b so old school and open your mind up. dont let nhra drag you around like a 5 year old kid in a store.

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by zach craig

WOW... Sounds like a bunch of old farts thanking this is still 1980. But the truth is that you are all just a bunch of pro bracket racers who bought or built a class car. If you really thank you r that bad and can make some big power with big money step up n go comp racing. Then you can race heads ups all day. The deal is i love stock n s/s no box racing is my deal but it is just hard 2 race a $45,000 doller car 4 a wopping $1300 bucks. The whole thang neads 2 step up n pay some cash. I am just hoping that avery one can come together class racers, super class racers, bracket racers ake all of us n start 2 git somthing going that pays i dont no about all of you but when it cost $750 a weekend 2 race and all you git is $1300 four the last 15 years somthing neads 2 change.TOM thanks 4 the complament on my driving but you nead 2 wake up and realize you r not warren johnson.

Zack...Todd is right on his assessment about what you want to accomplish. The truth is that all of those old farts, which I can include myself, have paid the price throughout the years on this sport. My recommendation is that if you want to be in the spotlight, there is a price to pay. However, you do not want to do so, therefore, either build a Stocker, or stay in bracket racing. Also, Tom Turner is one of the many racers that has paid the price in the sport and has a level head...he was already racing before your daddy planned in bringing you in to this world!!! In addition, who said you had to spend $45K to be competitive???

I watched Jody Lang take baby steps from bracket to Stock, and later Super Stock...he paid the price and been successful. Do you think that you can go and race in Stock Eliminator in bracket mode and become a champion in a matter of a couple of races???? That to me is total arrogance on your part...like the adage says...grow up...smell the roses and either race with the big dogs, or stay in the porch.

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by SSDiv6

Zack...Todd is right on his assessment about what you want to accomplish. The truth is that all of those old farts, which I can include myself, have paid the price throughout the years on this sport. My recommendation is that if you want to be in the spotlight, there is a price to pay. However, you do not want to do so, therefore, either build a Stocker, or stay in bracket racing. Also, Tom Turner is one of the many racers that has paid the price in the sport and has a level head...he was already racing before your daddy planned in bringing you in to this world!!! In addition, who said you had to spend $45K to be competitive???

I watched Jody Lang take baby steps from bracket to Stock, and later Super Stock...he paid the price and been successful. Do you think that you can go and race in Stock Eliminator in bracket mode and become a champion in a matter of a couple of races???? That to me is total arrogance on your part...like the adage says...grow up...smell the roses and either race with the big dogs, or stay in the porch.

And use English.Stop speaking in tongues.

Ed F.
NHRA #1945
IHRA #14

PS: Before you blast me note that I've had moderate success with a $12,000 car with a top 10 in Div.1 in 2006 (NHRA) and 2007 (IHRA).So it doesn't take $20,00-$50,000 car to do it.I also use a 1999 Dodge Dakota and 18' enclosed trailer,no motor home-stacker for me.

[Ed Hohenberg]

I just fell into this thread accidentally (since I've been out of this stuff for a while so I don't frequent the S/SS forums anymore). I haven't followed NHRA or IHRA S/SS rule changes either since I retired, but got excited when I found out in this thread the FI classes are being dropped for 2008. Being segregated from the traditional stock classes and put into a bastard child FI class offended me, so much so that it prompted my move into SS, where I got my *** kicked quickly, and decided it was better to just retire than cut up my car and sink a whole other fortune into it for SS. So I took my knowledge of EFI and went into tuning the ridiculously complicated OEM EFI systems for others. I can assure the OP that there is no magic HP key in the EFI programming. And it's a hell of a lot more difficult than tuning a carb.

As one of the earliest EFI guys in Stock, who struggled for years to figure out the technology, and claw my way to the basic performance standard, forcing me into a EFI class was like a slap in the face to me.

Like many others, I couldn't resist commenting here. The argument is old, and doesn't seem to change. For fun, I dug up an old post I made in November 2000 during a similar argument when EFI classes were first implemented. Posted in its entirety below:

************************************************** ********************

As one of the early efi guys in stock, I have some comments.

When I first started running my Ford efi car in stock back in the late '80s, everyone laughed at me. Sure the car got 20 instant hp from NHRA (God knows why?), and it was slow and embarrassing as I fought with the electronics, but slowly and eventually the car got faster as I figured it out, improved control systems became available, and the NHRA factor got more reasonable. Sure, lots of others have figured it out well too since, and run fast enough now that the HP probably needs another 5 (or 10 for the Cobras), but that's what the new NHRA factoring system should do.

When guys started running the GM efi cars, they never had to deal with a high initial HP factor, and had the advantage of factory involvement (unlike Ford), newer electronic controls, and a better developed knowledge base to start with. So the GM efi cars got quick, real quick. And the NHRA factors started going up. They just haven't gone up enough yet. Again, that's what the new NHRA factoring system should do.

I have to think back about the A fuelers in TAD. They were laughed at too, but a few diehard guys worked hard, figured them out, then started going really quick. Then all the alcohol guys whined, and NHRA stepped in to adjust the A/F factors, and the playing field leveled out.

It's going to happen again in S/SS too, just give it a chance. NHRA used to adjust S/SS factors several times a year, but the system wasn't consistent. So they stopped adjustments for a long time (when was the last refactoring, does anyone remember?) while they worked on developing a better system. In the mean time, the underfactored cars flew, and there was much frustration with the overfactored or properly factored racers.

It's got nothing to do with EFI vs CARBS, and/or a need for separate classes. It's got everything to do with PROPER HP FACTORS! Anyone who doesn't understand that, or chooses not to, can stick their head back in the sand, and quietly go the way of the old Hudson Hornet racers in Stock. The future is not going away. Live with it.

As for "they some how manage to find 2-3 tenths", I can remember real well when Corda "mysteriously" picked up 2 tenths in his old Max Wedge, and beat (then A/SA record holder) Mosbek's 426 in a heads up elimination round at Brainerd several years ago. He's been doing that since long before EFI. So have plenty of others.

In another 10 years, the EFI guys will probably be complaining about the hybrid guys going too fast.....

5010 SS

[Jeff Lee]

I recently had an email discussion with somebody in Finnland. I noticed in one of the links he provided me there were pictures of various Stock and Superstock vehicles; most which are recognizable to many of us as they once were raced in the USA. The recognizable ones are so because they were, at least previously, the fastes of the breed here in the USA. Looking at the dial-ins posted on the windows I noticed the ET's were WAY off base (slower, much slower) than what you would expect here in the USA for a comprable field. I asked what the track and weather was like. Sounded like a good day in Englishtown to me. All the cars seem capable of big wheelies so traction doesn't appear to be an issue. I didn't want to insult them but I finally had to ask, why are these cars all so slow? His response: a short season and lack of heads up runs.
I keep saying this, if you don't promote heads up runs, the sport will die! Throw 'em all in the mix and let the weak leave and the strong will survive. Like Tom Turner just posted, nothing says this is supposed to be fair or easy. I'd like to see the rules stipulate if you weigh enough for the next lower class then that's were you will race. That or 100# max over minimum; either one would make me happy. That would make it harder to avoid the AHFS. Am I right or wrong? Combine the sticks and auto's also. Bring some competitive blood to the sport and the AHFS will get triggered quite regularly, right? And this comes from a SS/H racer that is only .700 under at present and that's nothing to get excited about in SS/HA!