Is there any hope of NHRA separating traditional Stockers...

[Jesse Kershaw]

The package cars exist because NHRA did not have a way for late model production cars to compete with the older cars. The package car rule was the only way to get the manufacturers involved in Stock and Super Stock 10 years ago.

The initial low HP ratings on the cars were because there was no place else for them to go, at the time it was 7.5lbs class for AA. We had to rate the cars low to have a natural class. Once all 3 OEM's got involved things changed.

As the OEM's have improved the efficiency of the engines there are not the same gains to be had as older combinations. A 2.3L EcoBoost Mustang is rated at 310hp, to be a top flight Stocker it needs to make about 525hp and with stock turbo it won't get there. NHRA will now accept late model combos with slightly reduced HP ratings to try and even the field. If they were to make the rating a little more desirable, say 20-25% off the rated HP it would take a chunk out of the package car sales. I think that would be ok because the package cars are evolving but I worry that it's without a plan as to where they want to go, instead everyone's watching as to where they will land.

Having late model cars in Stock has many benefits. They are easier to get new parts for, those parts are readily available at the local dealer (John Calvert forgot to latch his hood and had a new hood and windshield that afternoon from the local Ford dealer). Tech should be easier because photos, specs, prints, and hardware are all readily available from the manufacturer. And depending on the part I think a late model car is economical, core engines, body panels, etc are cheap. Salvage title cars are plentiful after every natural disaster.

The package cars made up something like 40% of Indy last year so I doubt they are going anywhere, and they bring manufacturer and contingency sponsor involvement so there is upside. IMO if someone wanted those cars out they would have to die a natural death through late model production cars being more accepted. It seems unlikely Stock will return to a time when the field is dominated by and 60-80's cars.

I know this isn't popular, and I'm putting my flame suit on, but I think an alternative is to implement nostalgia or vintage classes. There's always talk about getting the package cars out of Stock, why not look to give the vintage iron their own classes and seek new sponsors and contingency for that? This could be a an opportunity for greater exposure and payouts. There are huge vintage markets out there and none of those manufacturers are sponsoring NHRA. If the goal is to have a better showcase for the 60-80's Stockers there are alternatives.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Jesse Kershaw

A 2.3L EcoBoost Mustang is rated at 310hp, to be a top flight Stocker it needs to make about 525hp and with stock turbo it won't get there. NHRA will now accept late model combos with slightly reduced HP ratings to try and even the field. If they were to make the rating a little more desirable, say 20-25% off the rated HP it would take a chunk out of the package car sales.

Hey!!!!! Dwight, Mark, do ya think maybe Jesse's on to something here? Does that number seem familiar? Maybe Jesse should read the letter that Dwight (that sliver-tongued devil) sent to the NHRA about a half-a-dozen times. Maybe Jesse can get a positive response!

[Rory McNeil]

Originally Posted by Jesse Kershaw

The package cars exist because NHRA did not have a way for late model production cars to compete with the older cars. The package car rule was the only way to get the manufacturers involved in Stock and Super Stock 10 years ago.

The initial low HP ratings on the cars were because there was no place else for them to go, at the time it was 7.5lbs class for AA. We had to rate the cars low to have a natural class. Once all 3 OEM's got involved things changed.

Mr. Kershaw, Why do you say the without the "package" cars, the NHRA did not have a way for late models cars to compete in NHRA Stock Eliminator? New, production cars had been racing in stock for many decades, Ford, Chevy & Dodge did have high performance production versions of the Mustang, Camaro & Challanger available to the public for years before the Cobra Jet, COPO & Drag Packs were invented, just like they were in the 60s and early 70s. Why were these production new cars not viable? Factory HP ratings too high maybe? Thats the manufacturers fault, not racers or NHRAs.

[D.Johns]

Originally Posted by Rory McNeil

Mr. Kershaw, Why do you say the without the "package" cars, the NHRA did not have a way for late models cars to compete in NHRA Stock Eliminator? New, production cars had been racing in stock for many decades, Ford, Chevy & Dodge did have high performance production versions of the Mustang, Camaro & Challanger available to the public for years before the Cobra Jet, COPO & Drag Packs were invented, just like they were in the 60s and early 70s. Why were these production new cars not viable? Factory HP ratings too high maybe? Thats the manufacturers fault, not racers or NHRAs.

He states the reason in his post.

“As the OEM's have improved the efficiency of the engines there are not the same gains to be had as older combinations.”

The new manufacturing process and standards has eliminated 30hp by turning a screw and 60hp by rebuilding a slapped together carburetor and adjusting the cam or machining with better tooling.

Plus with standards with SAE there is less “slide of hand” items to overrate/underrate due to insurance, advertising etc. HP ratings have to repeatable and within a window.

[Rory McNeil]

Originally Posted by D.Johns

He states the reason in his post.

“As the OEM's have improved the efficiency of the engines there are not the same gains to be had as older combinations.”

The new manufacturing process and standards has eliminated 30hp by turning a screw and 60hp by rebuilding a slapped together carburetor and adjusting the cam or machining with better tooling.

Plus with standards with SAE there is less “slide of hand” items to overrate/underrate due to insurance, advertising etc. HP ratings have to repeatable and within a window.

Yeah, I guess the modern HP ratings are why the new " package cars" can have higher comprssion ratios, bigger cams, larger throttle bodys, and less rated HP than the actual cars that the manufacturers sell to the public. (At least until they eventually get factored).

[D.Johns]

Originally Posted by Rory McNeil

Yeah, I guess the modern HP ratings are why the new " package cars" can have higher comprssion ratios, bigger cams, larger throttle bodys, and less rated HP than the actual cars that the manufacturers sell to the public. (At least until they eventually get factored).

Do not confuse NHRA rating and consumer SAE ratings. The NHRA usually took the original manufacturers ratings at face value on most VIN # cars. Example of say an L88 factory rated at 430hp actually made closer to 560hp. Compared to a 5.0(302) coyote at 425hp actually making 435hp and would take ported heads, cams and intake to make 560-600hp(500rwhp).

Now was the 08-later “package cars” underrated? Absolutely. The 425hp 5.4/2.3TVS was actually 605hp

As far as the Ford side of things a large chunk of the turnkey cars used factory part #s/castings. A huge amount of the parts are on the VIN car if you choose to build one from that and you can go to the Ford dealer to order the remaining parts(even the blower was a dealer installed option that would retain the factory warranty/emissions)

[6130]

As I've been away from the sport for a quarter of a century or so, can someone explain to me (in simple terms) the degree of separation that the Factory Showdown provides between regular Stockers and the factory race cars? The YouTube videos I've seen show the factory race cars racing against regular stockers- I don't understand.

[D.Johns]

Originally Posted by 6130

As I've been away from the sport for a quarter of a century or so, can someone explain to me (in simple terms) the degree of separation that the Factory Showdown provides between regular Stockers and the factory race cars? The YouTube videos I've seen show the factory race cars racing against regular stockers- I don't understand.

The Factory Stock Showdown is a heads up class completely separate from Stock eliminator. Only ran st 7 events and only the quick 16 get into the show. Don’t qualify you go home. *Any year (08-present) Factory SC engine in any year (08-present) factory drag car. All other Stk rules apply with min weights set based on engine combo. 2.3/5.4 is 3350 and 2.9/all other engine sizes is 3550#

The “Factory Stock” “paper” cars 08-present have the FS designation in stock and super stock for their class within stk/SS. Normal stk/SS rules apply. Same class is heads up run all else bracket race.

[6130]

Originally Posted by Rory McNeil

Mr. Kershaw, Why do you say the without the "package" cars, the NHRA did not have a way for late models cars to compete in NHRA Stock Eliminator? New, production cars had been racing in stock for many decades, Ford, Chevy & Dodge did have high performance production versions of the Mustang, Camaro & Challanger available to the public for years before the Cobra Jet, COPO & Drag Packs were invented, just like they were in the 60s and early 70s.

Bingo.

And although most people want to remember the "muscle" cars from the '60s as being fast (relative to late-model cars), vintage road tests reveal that most of them would have a hard time getting past a completely stock 2018 4-cylinder auto trans Mustang in a heads-up race.

[kdanner]

Originally Posted by 6130

Bingo.

And although most people want to remember the "muscle" cars from the '60s as being fast (relative to late-model cars), vintage road tests reveal that most of them would have a hard time getting past a completely stock 2018 4-cylinder auto trans Mustang in a heads-up race.

How are "completely stock" cars relevant here? That isn't what is being raced whether new or old.