Jones Head - Racers Only

[nhramnl]

Those of us who have been around Super Stock racing for a few decades have heard this kind of wishful thinking story before. "My new product will lower costs because it will eliminate manual machining or modification steps that you're currently paying for. And if you break a piston/head/block, you just order-up a replacement and you're good to go". Through all of those situations, I have never seen the cost (or complexity) of anything go down. And the net effect of every single one of these "make it faster and cheaper for the racer" initiatives was Super Stock moving further and further away from what it was when it was conceptualized, decades ago. When one guy starts using these heads, everybody will see that, to remain competitive, they will all have to. And almost immediately, cheaters will begin illegally modifying the one-off, never-offered-in-production heads, and NHRA will be forced (because they have no backbone) to make heads with changed valve angles, raised, lowered or back-cut intake and exhaust flanges (to yield straighter and/or larger ports), etc. legal. And our already virtually Comp cars move another increment away from any kind of affordability. As I said in a post couple of months ago, wonder why Sportsman drag racing is dying? Because nobody can afford a $150,000 Super Stock car. I don't begrudge Mr. Jones his idea or his products; I just don't understand what problem they solve, versus the problems they'll create.

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by nhramnl

Those of us who have been around Super Stock racing for a few decades have heard this kind of wishful thinking story before. "My new product will lower costs because it will eliminate manual machining or modification steps that you're currently paying for. And if you break a piston/head/block, you just order-up a replacement and you're good to go". Through all of those situations, I have never seen the cost (or complexity) of anything go down. And the net effect of every single one of these "make it faster and cheaper for the racer" initiatives was Super Stock moving further and further away from what it was when it was conceptualized, decades ago. When one guy starts using these heads, everybody will see that, to remain competitive, they will all have to. And almost immediately, cheaters will begin illegally modifying the one-off, never-offered-in-production heads, and NHRA will be forced (because they have no backbone) to make heads with changed valve angles, raised, lowered or back-cut intake and exhaust flanges (to yield straighter and/or larger ports), etc. legal. And our already virtually Comp cars move another increment away from any kind of affordability. As I said in a post couple of months ago, wonder why Sportsman drag racing is dying? Because nobody can afford a $150,000 Super Stock car. I don't begrudge Mr. Jones his idea or his products; I just don't understand what problem they solve, versus the problems they'll create.

Never mind. I don't have a current number.

[SS 7777]

I like the idea of the new cylinder heads. It’s getting harder and harder to find the old heads we have aftermarket companies like Jones trying to make the sport better The head is available to everybody NHRA can still tear you down can still look at it Dominic Camera 7777 SS

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by SS 7777

I like the idea of the new cylinder heads. It’s getting harder and harder to find the old heads we have aftermarket companies like Jones trying to make the sport better The head is available to everybody NHRA can still tear you down can still look at it Dominic Camera 7777 SS

Many are missing the point of contention and issue with these new cylinder heads.
The Jones cylinder heads, including two of the Edelbrock approved heads, have an an angle plug configuration.
I believe that about 95% of the Chevy small block engines, use an OEM straight plug configuration.

Dwight Sutherland made a very clear statement on his posting regarding the fact that these approved cylinder heads completely deviate from what is stated in the rule book.

If the intent was to offer a replacement to the OEM cylinder head, why not offer it with the OEM straight plug configuration?

Does an angle plug offer a power advantage?
Yes they do!

[Sean Cour]

Originally Posted by SS 7777

I like the idea of the new cylinder heads. It’s getting harder and harder to find the old heads we have aftermarket companies like Jones trying to make the sport better The head is available to everybody NHRA can still tear you down can still look at it Dominic Camera 7777 SS

You wouldn’t have a Jones engine in the oven, would ya Dominic? Hey, when can I get that engine cradle back you owe me?

[TILBURG]

Erik,
I have a question maybe two.
When "Jones engine development" woke up that morning and said I'm going to create a head that will level the playing field in S/S. What did he have in mind?
Did you go into it saying I'm going to keep all the same issues the current heads have had for the past 50 years? Such as areas.
When you made your core boxes for your head did you have the sizes and shapes of a modern s/s port in mind and put the water accordingly?
If I was getting ready to spend that kind of money I sure would of had to have that in the back of my mind.
Erik in no way am I getting on here to try to belittle you. The form was just opened up to try to clear up some questions for everyone.
I understand that there are other heads approved. And if they do it for them they should do it for Jones development Manufacturing.
I'm sure your spacing and angles are correct I wouldn't question that for a minute!
But all the other heads Alum and cast other than the" 2nd dart head" were as cast port heads that the manufacturer came up with as a replacement to put on your street car. Rather than spending money on old iron. And put the water jackets in them accordingly.
I'm sure you have worked on your fair share of these aftermarket heads. And you would have to admit you run into the same issues as a stock head.
I'm in no way saying that starting with a clean sheet of paper wouldn't be nice but I think this might not be the place to do it. I wish you all the best and hope you get the reward for all your hard work you have put into this.
Just my thoughts

[Cotten]

Erik obviously had an idea and did the work to get this head approved through the existing procedures set down by Nhra.

It appears to me that there are 2 main points of concern.

The first is that these are angle plug heads. If some manufacturers angle plug heads have already been approved, why, if you were developing a new head, would you not be angle plug? That ship has already sailed.

The second point is that there is material left in the runners that allows porting without extensive or even any welding or epoxy. I just don't see a downside to this. It allows every engine builder to search for the perfect runner with less labor. If he feels the perfect runner is already availiable in another casting then of course stick with it.

The sport we've chosen is not cheap. It's made up of a lot of smart, hard working people who come up with ideas to improve the performance of our cars, within the rules of Nhra.

This seems to be one of those ideas.

Yes, I am Eriks friend and customer and hope he develops a big block mopar casting before I'm on Medicare.

My opinion

[Erik Jones]

Originally Posted by Sean Cour

You wouldn’t have a Jones engine in the oven, would ya Dominic? Hey, when can I get that engine cradle back you owe me?

Sean.

Justin started this post for an open discussion for the topic of this cylinder head, I have done my best to stay professional thru this. To answer your question if i am doing an engine for Dominic the answer is yes. I gave him the same answer i gave you when you asked me to do an engine for you guys after Indy...."I'm a year and a half out" the only difference is Dominic said yes.

In my opinion the only reason you are against this being approved is because i am taking the advantage away that you think you have. Remember i stood right next to you in the barn at Indy with your cylinder head in your hand... I have been looking at cylinder heads for a long time and i know what i am looking at. NHRA can only police what is written down and what they can measure and we both know that. Now there is a casting that everyone can buy to start on a level playing field.

Tilburg,

Yesterday your comments showed that you didn't understand the way a cylinder was made and today you are talking about casting boxes.... The only thing i can say on that is if you think spark plug location and water jacket on an aluminum aftermarket head that has to end up 172 ccs makes a difference in how it runs then you are working in the wrong area.

I've done my best to answer legitimate questions without beating around the bush, this is a serious topic about someone who is trying to make your lives easier if you don't wan't that then that's fine with me. I have already contacted NHRA about changing the plug location and or removing the heads from the list. In the end my customers still get the best that i can do at that time regardless of what i start with. Judging from the 30 phone calls i received yesterday your implications are acknowledged, so let the cards fall where the may gentleman.

[Ed Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Erik Jones

Sean.

Justin started this post for an open discussion for the topic of this cylinder head, I have done my best to stay professional thru this. To answer your question if i am doing an engine for Dominic the answer is yes. I gave him the same answer i gave you when you asked me to do an engine for you guys after Indy...."I'm a year and a half out" the only difference is Dominic said yes.

In my opinion the only reason you are against this being approved is because i am taking the advantage away that you think you have. Remember i stood right next to you in the barn at Indy with your cylinder head in your hand... I have been looking at cylinder heads for a long time and i know what i am looking at. NHRA can only police what is written down and what they can measure and we both know that. Now there is a casting that everyone can buy to start on a level playing field.

Tilburg,

Yesterday your comments showed that you didn't understand the way a cylinder was made and today you are talking about casting boxes.... The only thing i can say on that is if you think spark plug location and water jacket on an aluminum aftermarket head that has to end up 172 ccs makes a difference in how it runs then you are working in the wrong area.

I've done my best to answer legitimate questions without beating around the bush, this is a serious topic about someone who is trying to make your lives easier if you don't wan't that then that's fine with me. I have already contacted NHRA about changing the plug location and or removing the heads from the list. In the end my customers still get the best that i can do at that time regardless of what i start with. Judging from the 30 phone calls i received yesterday your implications are acknowledged, so let the cards fall where the may gentleman.

Brian builds some of the fastest engines in stock and your saying he should find another line of work? That's rich man.......

[Dwight Southerland]

Although I am not a current SS competitor, I hope that the community will give me grace to weigh in on this issue.

First, there is nothing personal toward Eric Jones in my assessment of the problems and issues that have arisen in the decisions NHRA has made for replacement heads for the SBC.

There are so many issues that could be discussed due to the consequences of the acceptance of aftermarket heads for both Stock and Super Stock, but I want to address the specific problem of the angle plugs on the Edelbrock 60617 and 60947 heads and now the Jones Engineering head. The rule book specifically states “Grinding and polishing in combustion chamber permitted. Welding and/or applying epoxy in combustion chamber prohibited. Spark-plug hole must maintain the stock location, size, and angle as machined by the OEM; spark-plug adapters prohibited." Since none of the OEM cylinder heads that these heads are supposed to replace have angled spark plugs, then NHRA is violating its own rules and specifically giving favoritism to these parts. Many hours of testing by Chevrolet when the angle plug modification was developed for off-road use showed a significant power gain. Reputable and noted engine builders of the era when the angle plug heads were first released also verified that the modification increased power output over identical heads with straight spark plugs. The angled spark plugs is a modification that produces more power. However, no engine that Chevrolet produced for passenger car use from 1962 thru 1970 used cylinder heads that had angled spark plugs, which includes every engine in the Classification Guide and Technical Bulletins. And, Chevrolet never included in any of their parts books a service replacement for any of the engines of those years an angle plug cylinder head. In fact, Chevrolet has never listed an angle plug head as a service replacement for any first generation SBC of any year. The only two angle plug heads offered by Chevrolet, part numbers 336746 (casting 3991492) and 3965784 (casting 340292), were always listed as "off-road use". There is so much historical documentation that supports this fact that it almost is ridiculous to argue that there is a production precedent to allow an angle plug head on 1962-70 SBC engines. So, either NHRA’s rules don’t mean squat or the mentioned aftermarket heads should not be allowed as accepted replacements.

The argument “that ship has already sailed” is a lame excuse and does not mean the decision cannot be corrected. There are precedents where NHRA has corrected long standing use of parts by racers for the accuracy of the rule book.

If the rule for OEM spark plug placement can be ignored, what is necessary about any of the other rules concerning valve angle, valve placement in the combustion chamber or even port specs? The specs for those items are all based on OEM production just like the spark plug placement. But if one spec can be ignored, then why not all of them?

Several years ago, a noted big block Chevrolet racer developed an adapter that allowed the use of a small spark plug placed beneficially in the combustion chamber, but that was quickly shot down even though many racers were using them. Does that mean those adapters are now legal?

Could the Chrysler big block racers petition to have Edelbrock’s angle plug head accepted?

I could go on with many other examples that show that this one issue that comes from these decisions has consequences that can be avoided. It’s not like there are no replacement heads for these small block Chevrolets. Edelbrock already had two cylinder heads accepted that had straight plugs. Even Mr. Jones lists a straight plug head as one of his products.

Even to argue that these heads should have their own power rating is ludicrous in light of the violation of the rulebook. And that decision opens up another discussion about policy that we do not want to bring into this issue.

Please remove the angle plug heads from the accepted parts list for engines that were equipped OEM with straight plug heads.