Poking the Bear Ford Performance Products

[Jim D'Amore]

Originally Posted by Dan Bennett

Stepping out of the shadows - I've been following this thread and you've made some interesting points. Your primary question of why a combination was offered, accepted, and then removed by Ford is a good one. But as someone who's been around racing since the 1960's, you went astray with what I quoted.


Though it has always been up to the individual racer, Stock and Super Stock always seemed to be a question of who were the best engineers. Somewhere along the line the classes morphed into an equal opportunity stance - the same that drove me away from NASCAR.


If your favorite manufacturer chooses a different path than the others, that's on them. If it's the cubes that matter they had the chance to compete equally and chose not to. It bothers me that in today's world it's acceptable to ask for special treatment when your stuff is not on the same level as the competition.

Dan,


Thank you for your reply, point taken. I am not asking for any special treatment. In fact I don't own an 08,10, or 12 Cobra Jet I am simply asking a question as to why they would take out the combination that was already legal and approved. My statement you quoted was simply for comparison sake. Even with the bigger 4.0L blower, it's been proven these cars (08,10, 12 CJ) in Super Stock trim can only run 8.30's. Just look at Nitro Joe's stats.


Jim D'Amore

[Brett C]

Originally Posted by Jim D'Amore

Dan,


Thank you for your reply, point taken. I am not asking for any special treatment. In fact I don't own an 08,10, or 12 Cobra Jet I am simply asking a question as to why they would take out the combination that was already legal and approved. My statement you quoted was simply for comparison sake. Even with the bigger 4.0L blower, it's been proven these cars (08,10, 12 CJ) in Super Stock trim can only run 8.30's. Just look at Nitro Joe's stats.


Jim D'Amore

Oh really?!

[Jim D'Amore]

Originally Posted by Brett C

Oh really?!

Good evening Brett

Yes you have one fast hot rod I was there when you went 7:80s

Definitely not a fair comparison you are super stock to the maximum... you have almost twice to tire a trans brake so you can leave with full boost bigger camshafts ported cylinder heads extremely expensive valve train and hand fabricated intake manifold both upper and lower and everything else super stock allows you. Ok so now you moved to what we would have to run Factory lift camshafts Factory intake manifold Factory non ported cylinder heads Factory valve train no trans brake and a little teeny tiny Tire and there you have your 8:20 to 8:30

Trust me I would love to run your combination in The Showdown it would take a lot to try to manage it on a small Tire.

Jim D'Amore

[kdanner]

Originally Posted by Jim D'Amore

Most of the Fastest Cobra Jet's out there are still running the factory computer system.

That first post made the water deep in here to begin with it was so untrue.

Originally Posted by Jim D'Amore

If you spent 8 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars in R&D work on your 5.4L 4.0L combination

Then came this about a combination that no one runs in Stock Eliminator, so also untrue. Situation worsens, no land in sight anywhere.

Originally Posted by Jim D'Amore

in Super Stock trim can only run 8.30's.

Originally Posted by Jim D'Amore

Definitely not a fair comparison you are super stock to the maximum...

But now, now we're swimming in the Marianas Trench.


I still don't see how this thread can do anything positive for you Jim, but at least tell the truth.

[Jim D'Amore]

Originally Posted by kdanner

That first post made the water deep in here to begin with it was so untrue.





Then came this about a combination that no one runs in Stock Eliminator, so also untrue. Situation worsens, no land in sight anywhere.







But now, now we're swimming in the Marianas Trench.


I still don't see how this thread can do anything positive for you Jim, but at least tell the truth.

kdanner,


2014 NA Cobra Jet coyote in NHRA competition trim ran 9.33
Do you of another NA Cobra Jet running these times? Factory PCM


2008 Stock eliminator 5.4L 2.3L SC 8.24@167 Factory PCM


2010 FGT SS 5.4L 2.3L SC 8.14@167 Factory PCM


We've held 5 national records with factory PCM's


Combine with all our customers cars running factory PCM's 63 class Wally's and a bunch of #1 qualifiers, I don't even know how many I've lost count.


As far as my comment about money spent on R&D of the 5.4L 4.0L combination I guess I didn't mean to be as specific on the 4.0L but just the 5.4L in general. Sorry


What I meant by fair comparison is that for the showdown class you can not run Super Stock trim, you have to run stock eliminator trim. In stock eliminator trim I don't see the 5.4L 4.0L combination going faster than 8.30's, 8.20's at best.


How much experience do you have in building and racing the 5.4L motors? What do you know that I don't that the 5.4L 4.0L in Stock Eliminator trim can go 7.80's? Please share your experience about that, because the 5.4L 4.0L is legal for Stock eliminator.


I'm trying to keep this constructive, please do the same.

[GUMP]

If it is such a bad combination, why would anyone want to build it? Especially when it is now legal to run the 302/2.9 combination which has already performed better than the 5.4/4.0 examples that you have given.

[Jim D'Amore]

Originally Posted by GUMP

If it is such a bad combination, why would anyone want to build it? Especially when it is now legal to run the 302/2.9 combination which has already performed better than the 5.4/4.0 examples that you have given.

It's not a bad combination, in fact the 5.4L engine has a stronger block and is just more durable all around than the 5.0L.


To take an 08,10, or 12 car and switch it over to a 5.0L would cost and enormous amount of money. You have to buy a race ready engine, change your fuel system, headers, air intake, motor mount brackets, radiator, hoses, wiring, and computer. Not to mention the drivetrain items like torque converter, gearing (both trans and rear), even suspension setup. Based on the RPM and power band of that motor. It's a very big investment. On top of that the R&D time at the track and dialing in the combination. If you keep the 5.4L as it originally came in the car, only 08 and 10 cars would need the camshafts change. Then $4,500 for the 4.0L Supercharger and your done. You could easily convert any 08,10,12 car from a 5.4L 2.3L combination to a 5.4L 4.0L.


Jim D'Amore

[kdanner]

Originally Posted by Jim D'Amore

kdanner,


2014 NA Cobra Jet coyote in NHRA competition trim ran 9.33
Do you of another NA Cobra Jet running these times? Factory PCM


2008 Stock eliminator 5.4L 2.3L SC 8.24@167 Factory PCM


2010 FGT SS 5.4L 2.3L SC 8.14@167 Factory PCM


We've held 5 national records with factory PCM's


Combine with all our customers cars running factory PCM's 63 class Wally's and a bunch of #1 qualifiers, I don't even know how many I've lost count.


As far as my comment about money spent on R&D of the 5.4L 4.0L combination I guess I didn't mean to be as specific on the 4.0L but just the 5.4L in general. Sorry


What I meant by fair comparison is that for the showdown class you can not run Super Stock trim, you have to run stock eliminator trim. In stock eliminator trim I don't see the 5.4L 4.0L combination going faster than 8.30's, 8.20's at best.


How much experience do you have in building and racing the 5.4L motors? What do you know that I don't that the 5.4L 4.0L in Stock Eliminator trim can go 7.80's? Please share your experience about that, because the 5.4L 4.0L is legal for Stock eliminator.


I'm trying to keep this constructive, please do the same.

I'll try to be constructive Jim, it isn't easy with some of your statements here.

Regarding the factory PCM, you've stated that lack of RPM is a problem and I'm sure it is. You know there is plenty of EFI on the approved list which does not have that RPM problem. Not using the best available parts is simply not a good strategy.

Going by your own numbers given in your posts above, you're saying the 5.4/4.0 can only run 8.30, but you've got the 5.4/TVS running 8.24. So, much like Daren has already asked you, why clamor for this combination to be legal? Why spend a dime on it if it can't even run with the 5.4/TVS? I don't expect anyone to actually believe the TVS is quicker than the 4.0, but that is what you are claiming here.

After some of your latest statements here, I can't help but be reminded of Fun Ford Weekend, something like 15 years ago. They had a truck class that the rules were pretty wide open other than just being a Ford truck. You came in and started in wanting the rules changed so that they favored your Lightning customers. You didn't like the little Rangers with engine swaps and transbrakes, etc and got on their forums, repeatedly making statements to the effect that those vehicles built to the limits of the rules were unfair to your customers. They caved in and you got your way there. I do not believe you will succeed with similar tactics here.

[Jim D'Amore]

Originally Posted by kdanner

I'll try to be constructive Jim, it isn't easy with some of your statements here.

Regarding the factory PCM, you've stated that lack of RPM is a problem and I'm sure it is. You know there is plenty of EFI on the approved list which does not have that RPM problem. Not using the best available parts is simply not a good strategy.

Going by your own numbers given in your posts above, you're saying the 5.4/4.0 can only run 8.30, but you've got the 5.4/TVS running 8.24. So, much like Daren has already asked you, why clamor for this combination to be legal? Why spend a dime on it if it can't even run with the 5.4/TVS? I don't expect anyone to actually believe the TVS is quicker than the 4.0, but that is what you are claiming here.

After some of your latest statements here, I can't help but be reminded of Fun Ford Weekend, something like 15 years ago. They had a truck class that the rules were pretty wide open other than just being a Ford truck. You came in and started in wanting the rules changed so that they favored your Lightning customers. You didn't like the little Rangers with engine swaps and transbrakes, etc and got on their forums, repeatedly making statements to the effect that those vehicles built to the limits of the rules were unfair to your customers. They caved in and you got your way there. I do not believe you will succeed with similar tactics here.

As far as the factory PCM goes I think it is the best for tuning and yes we are limited by RPM. But we've made it work in the Cobra Jets for almost 10 years now.


The 4.0L is definitely quicker than the 2.3L. Your question to me was the fastest Cobra Jets with the factory PCM maybe I misunderstood but here is the deal. The average through out the season is going to be 8.20-8.30 for a 4.0L car. We are not talking optimum conditions with mineshaft air and a tail wind. I am just speaking in terms of average runs. As for a TVS the Average would be mid 8.40-8.50's.


Fun Ford Weekend, I took over the truck class in 2000. It had an average of 8-10 trucks per race at that time. At the end of 2001 in our Southern races where most of the events were held we would see as many as 50-60 trucks per class and it became FFW's largest class for 9 years in a row. The Majority being Lightning owners. As the only and primary sponsor for that class there were some rule changes made but never to the older vehicles. If you remember the first 5 years either a Ranger won or an older (1976 I believe) F-150 won. Since the birth of that class Trans brakes were never allowed, I just enforced the rule on the 2 Ranger trucks that were cheating and using them. Only because Fun Ford Weekend and myself received multiple complaints from the class participants.


As for the 5.4L 4.0L yes you are right we are never going to get the 4.0L that has been accepted, the fact still remains it was legal and on the books. Then Mike D. pulled it out and did not explain his positions as to why. Maybe because he is a representative of Ford Motor Company he feels he does not need to. The multiple people who own these cars would have liked to have an answer. I hope you can understand that, it is racers in general we are talking about not just me.




Jim D'Amore

[kdanner]

Originally Posted by Jim D'Amore

Even with the bigger 4.0L blower, it's been proven these cars (08,10, 12 CJ) in Super Stock trim can only run 8.30's. Just look at Nitro Joe's stats.


Jim D'Amore

Oh my, now that's a whopper right there.




EDIT: Treed by Brett, exactly who I had in mind.