Question on SS/AH & AH/SM

[Tom Broome]

Originally Posted by Ben Holt

There are no engine mods allowed for AH/SM versus SS/AH. The engine/car rules are lifted verbatim from SS. That is why I don't see any real performance gains by entering the car in Comp versus SS.
Now if you entered the car as an A/SM or A/SMA then yes, you are allowed changes, but the iron headed combo is at a distinct disadvantage on the 8.45 ish index for those classes....

Okay, I have lots of questions.

I understand Comp "can" be a teardown class, but considering all of the fuss about valve cover location/studs in SS/AA a while back, there aren't ANY modifications that might slide through in Comp? Or do you anticipate going through a full Super Stock teardown after qualifying for Comp? That's the only way Comp racers are ensuring that AH/SM is adhering to "engine/car rules are lifted verbatim from SS", not tweaked for performance here and there.


Truth is, Comp racers got tired of new classes getting a "gift" index and AH/SM and FS/SM suffered because of it. I see where you mentioned that the index should be where the top running cars should be able to run .65 under right off the bat, really? Yet you propose a 9.05 index? 9.05 minus .65 equals 8.40 by my math, Wolkwitz ran what, 8.44, at the Gators? I suppose that .61 under your proposed index right off the bat wouldn't be a gift, right?
Do you need to run .65 under to win Comp? How far under did Bruno have to run at Topeka? Does Rampy need to run .61 under to be competitive?


If the SS/AH cars really wanted to run Comp, they needed to show up at Divisional Races to run Comp. Those performance standards would give them some leverage for a better index. How many have done that this year? Or do you only expect cars to show up at Divisionals that have a chance to win? If you show up at a Divisional to get grade points in SS/AH do you still run the car like a "mini pro stock"?


Now, is the current AH/SM index too hard at 8.75? I would agree, that's too fast. What should it be? Slower, but how much? At 3170 lbs AH/SM is 7.14 pounds per cubic inch, A/SM is 7.5 pounds per inch....with an 8.45 index. For those who don't do math, that's .39 heavier and .30 faster than the "too fast" AH/SM index! Maybe A/SM needs an adjustment too! Is there a SM class with an index close to your proposed 9.05 index? Oh, D/SM is. That's 9.5 pounds per inch with little carburetors and head limitations, you could add only 1050 pounds to get to the index you want. The only precise way to determine the correct index for AH/SM is with more performance data. The only way to generate that data is?

[Dan Bennett]

While SS/AH is a very cool class and one I always pay attention to, the fact that the cars can go directly into Comp with no changes says everything about what the NHRA has allowed S/S to become.


Yes, I know they are a special case as one of the strongest combos ever to come out of Detroit. And yes, I remember that some Modified cars were put into SS a while back.


But it seems like the changes were made just to be the easiest possible for the NHRA and not because they made sense in view of what the the eliminator was meant to be in the first place.

[Ben Holt]

Originally Posted by Tom Broome

Okay, I have lots of questions.

I understand Comp "can" be a teardown class, but considering all of the fuss about valve cover location/studs in SS/AA a while back, there aren't ANY modifications that might slide through in Comp? Or do you anticipate going through a full Super Stock teardown after qualifying for Comp? That's the only way Comp racers are ensuring that AH/SM is adhering to "engine/car rules are lifted verbatim from SS", not tweaked for performance here and there.


Truth is, Comp racers got tired of new classes getting a "gift" index and AH/SM and FS/SM suffered because of it. I see where you mentioned that the index should be where the top running cars should be able to run .65 under right off the bat, really? Yet you propose a 9.05 index? 9.05 minus .65 equals 8.40 by my math, Wolkwitz ran what, 8.44, at the Gators? I suppose that .61 under your proposed index right off the bat wouldn't be a gift, right?
Do you need to run .65 under to win Comp? How far under did Bruno have to run at Topeka? Does Rampy need to run .61 under to be competitive?


If the SS/AH cars really wanted to run Comp, they needed to show up at Divisional Races to run Comp. Those performance standards would give them some leverage for a better index. How many have done that this year? Or do you only expect cars to show up at Divisionals that have a chance to win? If you show up at a Divisional to get grade points in SS/AH do you still run the car like a "mini pro stock"?


Now, is the current AH/SM index too hard at 8.75? I would agree, that's too fast. What should it be? Slower, but how much? At 3170 lbs AH/SM is 7.14 pounds per cubic inch, A/SM is 7.5 pounds per inch....with an 8.45 index. For those who don't do math, that's .39 heavier and .30 faster than the "too fast" AH/SM index! Maybe A/SM needs an adjustment too! Is there a SM class with an index close to your proposed 9.05 index? Oh, D/SM is. That's 9.5 pounds per inch with little carburetors and head limitations, you could add only 1050 pounds to get to the index you want. The only precise way to determine the correct index for AH/SM is with more performance data. The only way to generate that data is?

Let me see if I can answer them for you

Yes, if you hit the index or set a record as an AH/SM you can expect to get a full super stock style teardown. That is straight from NHRA tech dept.

No, I do not believe a top running hemi car being able to run .65 under is a gift. It is a highly refined combo that, again, will not "magically" go faster as a comp car. And that is the beauty of comp. If one of these cars does go .65 under in elims, then the cic starts to come into affect and will in turn self regulate the index. That is the basis of comp.

Yes, I do agree with you that they need to actually run the class as it sits so that they can show in real world conditions that the index is off. Without doing a ton of research, there have been several this year that have competed. Wolkwitz, comella, welker, Bucky, pancake, and I think a few west coast guys have. I know several of my other customers considered it, but elected to stay in SS b3cause of the index.

I can only speak for my current customers, but everyone I know runs their car like they are trying to set a record every time they go to the water box. Only exception is probably comellas dart. They don't run it as hard but they are chasing points (and kicking butt!) And they have the red cuda to run shootouts with.

First, minimum weight for ss/ah is 3200. Second, you can't compare a/sm and ah/sm. A/sm is allowed two dominators, any port work, titanium valves, aluminum rods, billet cranks, vacuum pumps, longer wheelie bars, 5 speeds, carbon brakes, etc. Just the 5 speed alone is probably a tenth.....

As far as where is the data? There is 50 years of it. Or the last ten years of hemi shootout at indy. We compiled the data of the last 4 years of the shootout at indy versus comp qualifying and submitted that to nhra. When you look at that info, same track, weather, track, etc, it's pretty obvious where the index needs to be.

[Tom Broome]

Originally Posted by Ben Holt

Let me see if I can answer them for you

Yes, if you hit the index or set a record as an AH/SM you can expect to get a full super stock style teardown. That is straight from NHRA tech dept.


So if you "only" run .65 under not .71 under you don't get a teardown? You only get pumped and castings checked?


No, I do not believe a top running hemi car being able to run .65 under is a gift. It is a highly refined combo that, again, will not "magically" go faster as a comp car. And that is the beauty of comp. If one of these cars does go .65 under in elims, then the cic starts to come into affect and will in turn self regulate the index. That is the basis of comp.


Sure it is a highly refined combo, so are the other cars that run .35 under. It's hard not to see it as a bunch of rich guys that think they have spent enough money and deserve a "good index". By the way, if someone runs .65 under in eliminations, that's personal index, not cic.


Yes, I do agree with you that they need to actually run the class as it sits so that they can show in real world conditions that the index is off. Without doing a ton of research, there have been several this year that have competed. Wolkwitz, comella, welker, Bucky, pancake, and I think a few west coast guys have. I know several of my other customers considered it, but elected to stay in SS b3cause of the index.



I know that "several have competed" this year, but without names, dates, locations, and qualifying times all I'm hearing is speculation. I know it's a "ton" of research, but without research how do you propose to influence others with differing opinions?


I can only speak for my current customers, but everyone I know runs their car like they are trying to set a record every time they go to the water box. Only exception is probably comellas dart. They don't run it as hard but they are chasing points (and kicking butt!) And they have the red cuda to run shootouts with.


I'm trying not to be a smart-alec here. Is this a valid point of discussion?


First, minimum weight for ss/ah is 3200. Second, you can't compare a/sm and ah/sm. A/sm is allowed two dominators, any port work, titanium valves, aluminum rods, billet cranks, vacuum pumps, longer wheelie bars, 5 speeds, carbon brakes, etc. Just the 5 speed alone is probably a tenth.....


Okay, I missed the weight by 30 pounds, that makes AH/SM 7.2 pounds per inch instead of 7.14. Like it or not, if you do research Comp and isolate the classes based on pounds per inch you will see trends. Comp is at it's heart a pounds per inch class regardless of body type or induction system.

I was only using A/SM as an easy comparison,but lets go through your points anyway.

Carburetors: B/SM and C/SM are both 8.5 pounds per inch. B/SM gets two dominators, C/SM gets one 750 four barrel and .19 index for their trouble. Kind of dampens ones performance expectations doesn't it.
Any port work, titanium valves: Does anyone modify their heads as much as SS/AH? Give some of those other Comp classes a port volume limitation and see how little they slow down. I thought SS/AH already had titanium valves. Did they take them away, or was that discussion a lost cause?
Aluminum rods and billet cranks: If you find a Comp car running aluminum rods it's a matter of convenience not performance. Don't the hemi cars already get Honda diameter bearings? Do you do that on a "stock" forging? Or some type of lightened aftermarket forging that's already lightened and pendulum cut? Did you see the previous discussion about Chevrolet Stock Eliminator Cranks?
Wheelie bars: How much did it slow down Pro Stockers when they shortened wheelie bars?
5 speeds: If one gear is really worth a tenth, then the Super Stock Modified and Super Modified classes are all out of whack, they both get 5 percent for automatic transmissions, yet one runs a 4 speed and the other gets a 5 speed. Is the 5 speed faster? Is it REALLY a tenth faster....
Carbon Brakes: really.....carbon brakes?
Vacuum pump: Its worth something, but what?
So....by your math, we add all of this together and it's worth 6 tenths....Let's repeat that SIX TENTHS......between A/SM and AH/SM.


Give Rampy your index and a AH/SM with an automatic transmission, and you can kiss multiple Comp Championships goodbye.



As far as where is the data? There is 50 years of it. Or the last ten years of hemi shootout at indy. We compiled the data of the last 4 years of the shootout at indy versus comp qualifying and submitted that to nhra. When you look at that info, same track, weather, track, etc, it's pretty obvious where the index needs to be.

That's good data, but it's still not data from those cars running Comp. Your argument would be a lot stronger with more passes in Comp. Lots of other racers go out there and struggle in Comp. Why do the Hemi cars deserve special consideration?

I can only presume you still feel that a 9.05 index is still fair to the other racers in Comp?

Is it fair to Comp to let a Hemi racer in and cost the class by losing other racers? An occasional Hemi car is worth losing regular competitors? That's what will happen with a "gift" index.

[RonP]

I hope you realize the Holt brothers both have an F/D and have raced Comp for several years. Everything they stated is valid.
Thanks, Ron

[Andrew Hill]

According to Nitro Joe's stats, only 3 classes have had more participation in comp this year than AH/SM so far, B/DA (11 cars), C/DA (7), and A/EA (7). Five others have had the same amount of cars as AH/SM (5), C/SM, G/AA, C/A, AA/AM, and C/ED.

The best run has been Bucky Hess with a -0.31 8.44 at Reading, put him #27 out of 31 cars and the last car that actually ran under the index in qualifying. A 9.00 index would have made him #16 at -0.56 under, and a 9.05 index would have made him #9 at -0.61 under.

In 2018, the max number of comp cars in any class was B/DA with 13. SS/AH had 38 cars run in 2018. 2017 was 18 B/DA cars, 36 SS/AH. 2016 17 B/DA, 32 SS/AH.2016 12 B/DA, 39 SS/AH. So it appears that there has been significantly more participation in SS/AH than any single comp class for the last several years. A number of these entries are not competitive with the fast guys, but I believe there have been quite a few different cars and engine builders running ETs near the top over the years.

The comparison was brought up between AH/SM and the other SM classes. An A/SMA is 400 in at 2750 lb, once you factor the 250 lb reduction for an automatic, that's 6.875 lb/in. An AH/SM would be 150 lb lighter at 6.875 lb/in than at 7.2 lb/in. So you take the 8.53 A/SMA index and add 0.15 for the weight (maybe a hundredth or two less?) you get 8.68, only 0.07 faster than the current AH/SM index. Does anybody really think all of the stuff you can do in the base SM classes over a Hemi car is worth that little?

Comp needs more cars and a lot of the guys with SS/AH cars like to run them flat out all the time, comp is a great place for that. It's tough to show up at a race with the mindset that you have one of the fastest cars in your class (that's had a ton of rich and talented guys run it over the years) and you probably don't have a chance in hell of winning a round, much less the race.

Just my 2 cents as a comp fan who that would love to run the class someday, hopefully sooner rather than later.

[Spyphish]

Sure it is a highly refined combo, so are the other cars that run .35 under. It's hard not to see it as a bunch of rich guys that think they have spent enough money and deserve a "good index".


SIR, that is EX rich guys. I will sell mine "on the hoof" at Indy. CHEAP

[Tom Broome]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hill

The comparison was brought up between AH/SM and the other SM classes. An A/SMA is 400 in at 2750 lb, once you factor the 250 lb reduction for an automatic, that's 6.875 lb/in. An AH/SM would be 150 lb lighter at 6.875 lb/in than at 7.2 lb/in. So you take the 8.53 A/SMA index and add 0.15 for the weight (maybe a hundredth or two less?) you get 8.68, only 0.07 faster than the current AH/SM index. Does anybody really think all of the stuff you can do in the base SM classes over a Hemi car is worth that little?

I'm catching some grief, it's okay because I actually agree that the index needs adjustment. I do react poorly to pushback and need to be mindful of how it affects others.

Just for grins, lets pretend I own a Super Stock Modified Cobalt and I'm exploring moving to Comp. I would do a quick comparison of classes between Comp and Super Stock with virtually identical weight breaks and rules.


Lbs/ci_____SS class-Index____Comp class-Index_____Change+/-
7.5________SS/AM--9.00______A/SM--8.45_________-.55


8.5________SS/BM--9.20______B/SM--8.66_________ -.54



9.5________SS/CM--9.50______E/SM--9.10_________ -.40


10.5_______SS/DM--9.75______G/SM--9.33_________ -.42


So, if we look at Hemi cars:

7.2________SS/AH--9.60______AH/SM--8.75_________-.85
Lets try 9.05:
7.2________SS/AH--9,60______AH/SM--(9.05)________-.65


On it's face this makes 9.05 look like a number that didn't get pulled out of thin air. But we need to consider the SS/AH index could be a little "soft" compared to SS Modified. How far under in Super Stock do the typical SS Modified cars qualify versus SS/AH. That will define how "soft" the relative indexes might be.

Andrew, you mentioned the Nitro Joe Stats, Five cars in AH/SM. All at national events? That's 5 races with Hemi cars, or five different cars at races?
So, what does a SS/AH racer do? Tough call. Show up in Comp and hope you get past first round and run all out, or run Super Stock and try to try to run a dial in for more rounds?

[Andrew Hill]

Originally Posted by Tom Broome

Andrew, you mentioned the Nitro Joe Stats, Five cars in AH/SM. All at national events? That's 5 races with Hemi cars, or five different cars at races?

Five cars at 4 different races. Nitro Joes stats shows each racer’s best run, so I’m not sure if any of those 5 cars have run multiple races, but I’m pretty sure some have.

Imo, I think Bucky Hess and Gary Wolkwitz (top 2 Hemi cars in AH/SM this year) have probably put as much time and money into their combos as anyone in any class in comp. if they aren’t competitive with the current index, who will be?