Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by oldskool

That list brings up some Pontiac questions & comments.

Don Ringer is listed as winning D/D, with Pontiac power. So, aprox what cube engine would that require ? Ya'll know anything about the car or driver ?

D/SA is Ray McClelland. Assume that was with his '62 Cat.

I/SA was John Thropp. Assume that would have been with his familiar '57 Pontiac.

H/SA was Jack Briner. I just ran across that name today. He ran a '65 2+2 Pontiac, named "Movin On".

Based on the D/D class my guess would be he was running a dragster.


Stan

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Based on the D/D class my guess would be he was running a dragster.


Stan

Stan. The D to the right of the slash mark tells us the car was a dragster. You know, there are A/Dragster, B/Dragster, C/Dragster, etc.

What I'm wanting to know is what size the Pontiac engine was, in that car. By running a D, as compared to an A, B, or C, I'd assume the car either had a small cube engine, OR it was heavier than most higher classed dragsters.

I think Pontiac had a 287, 317, 326, & 347, that could have been used. Or it could have been a 350 or larger engine, in a heavier dragster, I suppose. Could have even been a "Trophy 4", I suppose. Don't have a clue.

And, I know it is a long shot, but hoping somebody might know this car & maybe even have pics. Don't know without asking.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Stan. The D to the right of the slash mark tells us the car was a dragster. You know, there are A/Dragster, B/Dragster, C/Dragster, etc.

What I'm wanting to know is what size the Pontiac engine was, in that car. By running a D, as compared to an A, B, or C, I'd assume the car either had a small cube engine, OR it was heavier than most higher classed dragsters.

I think Pontiac had a 287, 317, 326, & 347, that could have been used. Or it could have been a 350 or larger engine, in a heavier dragster, I suppose. Could have even been a "Trophy 4", I suppose. Don't have a clue.

And, I know it is a long shot, but hoping somebody might know this car & maybe even have pics. Don't know without asking.

I have never heard anyone reference a dragster as a car before.


Does anyone have a rule book from '69? My guess would be he was running either a 4 or 6 cylinder engine.


Stan

[oldskool]

" I have never heard anyone reference a dragster as a car before..."

I can't believe you posted that, even if you were thinking it !

" Dragster (car)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


An early example, a 1958 Fuel rail, on display at the California Automobile Museum
A dragster is a specialized competition automobile used in drag racing...

Woody Gilmore (following the mid-engined Funny Car he built for Doug Thorley) and Pat Foster developed a rear-engined fuel dragster, which was unveiled in December.[8] Driven by Foster, the Gilmore car ran just once, getting up on its single rear wheelie bar and breaking in two at around 220 mph (350 km/h), at Lions Drag Strip.[9] Gilmore and Foster built a similar car, Pawnbroker, for Dwane Ong, incorporating the lessons of the previous car; it debuted in 1970, and proved considerably better.[10] In August, Ong won the 1970 AHRA Nationals in the car.[11] Pawnbroker won the American Hot Rod Association Summernats in Long Island, New York, the first national event win for a rear-engined car, with a pass of 6.83 at 219 mph (352 km/h).[12] "Big Daddy" Don Garlits examined the car and was so impressed with the forward view, he could not understand why everyone did not drive one--and why it did not work.[13] Around the same time, Bernie Schacker's rear-engined car, the first with a rear wing, was the first to run in the sixes, with a 6.98 at 192.70 mph (310.12 km/h), at New York National Speedway's Spring Nationals (an event sanctioned by none of the national bodies).[14]

In April 1970, Mark Williams' car, built for Mike Dollins and Dan Widner (at a cost of only US$2,111.16), first appeared; its 235 in (6,000 mm) wheelbase was significantly longer than the 180 in (4,600 mm) usual for fuellers at the time.[15] The car ran well, but required new driving techniques; Dollins and Widner lacked the money to continue racing it, and it was sold to a Colorado team, which switched to a 354 cu in (5,800 cc) hemi (rather than the usual 392 cu in (6,420 cc).[16]

Others rear-engined cars included ones built by Art Malone (before working with Garlits on his), the National Speed Products Research carbuilt by Frank Huszar (Race Car Specialties) on a stunning 254 in (6,500 mm) wheelbase; driven by Chuck Tanko, it was overweight, at 1,375 lb (624 kg), and could only achieve 7.20s at 210 mph (340 km/h), never running in competition.[17]

On March 8, 1970, at Lions Drag Strip,[18] Garlits was driving Swamp Rat XIII, also called the Wynnscharger, a slingshot rail, when the vehicle suffered a catastrophic failure, and the car broke in half in front of the cockpit.[19]

Garlits returned to Pomona with a brand new mid-engined car, Swamp Rat XIV, in 1971.[20] At first, the rodding magazines considered the disadvantages of the new design "obvious". Swamp Rat XIV turned in a pass of 6.80 right off the trailer,[21] and was so successful during 1971, Garlits won two of his next three Top Fuel Eliminator titles (the Winternats and Bakersfield), and was runner-up at Lions, all in the new car..."

[Stan Weiss]

The Dragster is powered by Injected Gas Pontiac 4 cyl (twins).



Stan

[Billy Nees]

and a dragster is not a car!

[oldskool]

" 69 NATIONALS Top Stock Class Winners "

"...D/SA – B Bunker – Pontiac GTO – 12.45 @ 110.97..."


Here's that D/SA class winner, driven by Bill Bunker.

The story goes that it was sponsored by Colonial Pontiac, in Florida. Has "Colonial Banshee" on the door.

The 2nd pic was taken earlier. At that time, it had "Colonial Banshee Project Car", on the door.

Had "Cam by Joe Lunati" on the rear deck spoiler. Don't know why. Maybe Joe made a super duper Stocker cam for it. Maybe he was also a partial sponsor.

[Rat Patrol]

OLD Skool

Ok, the only info I have is whats on the list of winners I posted, and DC’s tables....which you quoted.

So to answer your 1st question - So.......Not ‘made up’ - You’d have to ask DC how he arrived at the ‘likely contenders’.

I decided on the B/SA Ben Wolf Pontiac entry after discussions with DC - there were three viable 1969 Pontiacs that met class. If you think the Firebird is a better ‘fit’ - I’ll change the entry - after all, all we have is the Driver, the Brand and the year model.

[Rat Patrol]

Old Skool - “In the Spring Nats class winners lists, it shows a Ben Wolf B/SA '61 Pontiac, which ran a 12.20.

So, were BOTH the '69 GTO AND the '61 Pontiac running B/SA, in '69 ? “

DC and I decided it was a misprint as there is no 61 car that met class.


Re-Briner - Its just another conflict btwn DCs list and the results list.

UNDERSTAND - Until a week ago the only data I had was DCs list - a recent stay in hospital has prevented me from ‘tidying up’ the web page -

Believe me, prostatitis does’t leave you feeling much like talking cars!

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Rat Patrol

OLD Skool

Ok, the only info I have is whats on the list of winners I posted, and DC’s tables....which you quoted.

So to answer your 1st question - So.......Not ‘made up’ - You’d have to ask DC how he arrived at the ‘likely contenders’.

I decided on the B/SA Ben Wolf Pontiac entry after discussions with DC - there were three viable 1969 Pontiacs that met class. If you think the Firebird is a better ‘fit’ - I’ll change the entry - after all, all we have is the Driver, the Brand and the year model.

The "made up" description is a comparison. Rather than being a list that was published in the National Dragster paper, which looks official, it appears to be a list that some individual "made", therefore I used the term "made up". It was not a put down or criticism, or me saying that he just made it up out of thin air or something.

As to which car was more likely raced, if it was indeed a Pontiac, I'd go with one of the Birds. I have LOTS of pics of '69 GTO's. Can't find a single one with B/S or B/SA on it. I can't even find one with C/S or C/SA on it. They were just too heavy(3500lbs)Not saying they didn't run that class, in '69. Just saying I've never seen a pic of one running that high a class. Most have either D or E on 'em. Have one with F on it. But, I have no idea what the NHRA hp factor was, for the GTO engines, in '69.

Now, as to WHICH Bird might have been used. Could have been either. I'd have to lean towards the '69, simply because the year of the race was '69, & because lots of Pontiac dealerships raced current year model cars, to help with sales of current year models they had in stock. He may have been offered the car for one or just a few races, because they knew he was a good experienced Pontiac racer.

Then again, the car could have been a '68, which was owned by a friend, who wanted him to tune & drive the car some, in order to make it a little quicker.

Unless we could talk to someone who knew the situation, or unless we can find a pic of the car with his number or name on it, I suppose there is no way to know, for sure, exactly what he was driving. If I had to guess, I'd go with the RA4 '69 Bird, assuming he was driving a Pontiac.

May have been driving a different brand car at that race. Lots of Pontiac guys switch brands. Some drive 2 different brands at the same race. For example: Scott Burton now drives a Ford in Stock & a Pontiac in SS, at some races.

"So what motor, what HP was this car?"

Until I see a pic of a '69 GTO taken during the '69 season, with either C/S, C/SA, B/S, or B/SA, I'll say that a D/S or D/SA '69 GTO had the RA4 engine. I'll guess that the RA3 engine ran E & the std 350hp engine ran F. But I can't prove it. Don't know the NHRA hp factors for any of these engines, at the time. The only legal weight I've ever seen listed is 3500lbs.

I do have a pic of the 1968 "Rocky's Goat", with C/SA on it. But the pics I have of the '69 Rocky's Goat show it with either D/SA or E/SA. It set the E/SA nat record, in '70.

Also have a pic of a '69 Judge with F/SA on it. Assuming it had the RA3 engine, & pic was taken in '70.