to all 85-92 efi racers

[bill dedman]

Jim Wahl said:

>>>> I give up. Let's just ban all turbo cars because it upsets you.

It doesn't upset me; it makes me think that when 2 or 3 percent of the cars win over 15-percent of the #1 qualifying slots at national events, there's something amiss. I can't imagine that you wouldn't agree.


>>>> While we are at it lets ban all cars with Holley carbs because you can change jets and put more fuel in the motor than factory specs, and that upsets me.

But, you said you didn't care what screws were turned on carbs... has that changed?

>>>> I don't think RWD cars should be allowed to run anything but a factory offered ring and pinion. That upsets me to. Non spec computers upset me.

Why are you advocating equipment changes? I have never advocated ANY equipment change, just the addition of a gauge.


>>>> I went way out of my way to offer you the whole big picture as far as your question was concerned but you want to cherry pick your stats.

No, you changed the subject of the discussion from national event qualifying to include ALL racing, which was never a part of my contention. I NEVER mentioned points races, because there hasn't been the problem at points races that exists at national events.

I didn't cherry pick anything. I included the national event stats from EVERY NATIONAL EVENT for 2004, thru 2007. No cherry picking, just national events (ALL: of them) that were pertinent to the subject matter: #1 qualifiers at national events.

>>>> Nope I don't accept your stats. The REAL WORLD stats are less than 6%.

Not for national events. You want to throw in races that have no pertinence with this argument; Points races were never mentioned,in this discussion by EITHER of us, just national events because THAT IS WHERE THE PROBLEM LIES. Introducing statistics from the Lucas Oil Series of Points Races is totally outside the framework of this argument. The qualifying anomalies that exist at the national event level are not apparent at points races. NO problem, there. Does that mean we can't consider national events as an entity unto itself? I don't think so....



>>>> Once again I say to you, if you really believe that turbo cars are at such an advantage, jump right in! Bill, my point here is virtually everything about race cars are more or better than factory spec


I wouldn't ever run a turbo car because they are too hard to dial. That is not a problem in qualifying, however, and doesn't keep them from qualifying #1, inordinately (percentage-wise, at national events.).

>>>> That is what makes them competitive. Bob Dennis qualifies #1 at more than 50% of the races he enters! Bitch about him. Who cares Bill?

I have NO quarrel with Bob Dennis and what he does. Qualifying #1 with a car that depends on boost for its power is always a sitting duck for speculation. Bob Dennis has no such Achilles Heel.

>>>>I'm finished with this now.

Thank you for your input, Jim. Your inability to explain why two or three percent of the cars running Stock Eliminator (the turbo cars) should be earning over fifteen percent of the #1 qualifying slots at NATIONAL EVENTS tells me that either 1. You don't comprehend the inequity here, 2. Your deep involvement with turbo cars skews your judgment, or 3. You KNOW, but you rationalize that since these cars are so hard to dial, let's give them SOMETHING (like the top qualifying position) in lieu of a win. )

I hope it's not #3.

I appreciate very much the time you took to make your case, here; it is always nice talking to you.

[Jim Wahl]

I guess you missed my point again Bill. To bad you don't recognize sarcasm when you see it. I have to hand it to you, you can spin and cherry pick with the best of them! You should be a politician. Look Bill it's real simple. Turbo guys don't do anything more to gain performance than non turbo guys do. They take completely legal factory equipment and try to get the most performance out of it they can, sort of like advancing a distributor further than factory settings or jetting a carb richer than factory specs or installing a different rear end ratio than was available from the factory or putting the cam in at a different spec than a factory cam or doing a different valve job than the factory spec, on and on and on. The point that you just plain don't like turbo cars does not make the fact that the turbos are adjustable illegal! Turbos are adjustable, distributors are adjustable, carbs are adjustable, cams are adjustable. get the point? There is nothing illegal with adjusting these types of equipment to your advantage. The fact also remains that more turbo cars qualify below the 50th percentile than qualify in the top 10.

Now I want to go on the record , I have no problem with Bob Dennis either, in fact I think he is amazing and consider him a friend. However if you really had a problem with any single entity qualifying in the #1 position disproportionally, you would have a problem with him.

Now as you may or may not know I ran a FWD Cadillac Cimarron many years ago. One year I qualified #1 at 5 different NATIONAL events including Indy. At that time there were only two Cadillac Cimarrons in the country. At that time also there were only 20 National events. That means that combo in that year qualified #1 at 25% of the National events. This was NOT a turbo car. Now this car was completely legal and I set the record with this car 5 times and was torn down 19 times in 18 years. Tell me what you would try and limit on this car?

Turbo cars are legal and are taking the same advantage of factory parts that ALL other combos are doing and NOTHING more. Admit it Bill, you ARE a turbophobe! There is help available for you. Jim

[bill dedman]

Jim,

Thanks you for your psychological analysis of my state of mind. For a "turbophobe," I have some strange habits.... my best car buddies here have a loosely-knit club that meets for breakfast every Saturday. The single thing about these guys that causes them to hang together is that they ALL drive and race turbo Buicks. They let me hang around because my car is a self-built, Vortech-blown Mopar ('72 Valiant, 360 Magnum.) I can probably outrun some of them... but, not all. Thirty pounds of boost is hard to get around...

Some set of friends for a "turbophobe," eh???

I know of two road race organizations whose sanctioning bodies require the use of telltale boost gauges on forced-induction cars in competition. There are probably more; I just ran across those two while surfing the 'net one day. Why do you think they require those?

Your Cimarron, and Bob Dennis's cars are VERY impressive, but they did it all without boost. Hard work coupled with excellent race-track savvy will get you there. A soft HP factor and / or, a cooperative index doesn't hurt.

But, these cars I cited can't ALL be under-rated, and running off soft indexes. Hard to believe that ALL o f those turbo cars' owners are that smart.... but, what's the ONE THING that can catapult an also-ran into an index-smashing STAR?

Increased boost...

That is why I am of the opinion that the boost levels in these cars are not what they were when they left the factory. And, they need to be. Normally-aspirated cars, as I have pointed out, only have the same sort of barometric pressure that was present at their SAE HP dyno pull to utilize at a race. Turbo cars make their OWN "barometric pressure." Or, at least, the pressure present at the back side of the intake valve.

To reiterate:
"Your inability to explain why two or three percent of the cars running Stock Eliminator (the turbo cars) should be earning over fifteen percent of the #1 qualifying slots at NATIONAL EVENTS" is telling.

These guys aren't Bob Dennis... They're not Jim Wahl... They are a varierty of people with one common thread: Unrestricted boost from their turbochargers.

I feel that needs to be fixed.

As an aside, I was going to turbocharge the motor in my Valiant, but there's not much room for plumbing under the hood of that A body, so I went the belt-driven route. Sure feels good, when the boost gauge starts its climb...

Have a good weekend!!!

[Jim Wahl]

"Some set of friends for a "turbophobe," eh???"

They must be using you as comedy relief Bill.

"I know of two road race organizations whose sanctioning bodies require the use of telltale boost gauges on forced-induction cars in competition Why do you think they require those?"

Because they want a bunch of cookie cutter cars. Until NHRA and IHRA requires your "gauge" I don't care what other sanctioning bodies do.

"But, these cars I cited can't ALL be under-rated, and running off soft indexes. Hard to believe that ALL o f those turbo cars' owners are that smart"

Yeah because everybody knows turbo guys are a bunch of low tech moronic idiots!

"That is why I am of the opinion that the boost levels in these cars are not what they were when they left the factory"

This is one of the first things you have gotten correct Bill. See the equality statement refering to other engine parts in my above post.

"Your inability to explain why two or three percent of the cars running Stock Eliminator (the turbo cars) should be earning over fifteen percent of the #1 qualifying slots at NATIONAL EVENTS" is telling"

Oh ok, I'll tell you why. Because several extremely technologically inept moron mechanics got lucky I guess. Oh and your data base is skewed big time. I'm surprised you didn't use only the races that turbo cars competed in. Your data MUST include all races not just National events.

"These guys aren't Bob Dennis... They're not Jim Wahl... They are a varierty of people with one common thread: Unrestricted boost from their turbochargers."

Yeah, sort of like all other races who want unrestricted performance from their race cars.

"I feel that needs to be fixed."

OK Bill, other guys who actually race have a few more pressing concerns they have been trying to have resolved but I'm sure NHRA will get right back with you.

"As an aside, I was going to turbocharge the motor in my Valiant, but there's not much room for plumbing under the hood of that A body"

I have a friend who has a twin turbo setup under the hood of a 440cid A body Dart with the stock fender wells and hood. You might want to contact one of those technological moron turbo mechanics to get that done for you. On second thought, after reading this thread, I doubt they would give you the time of day.

Oh, and my psychological analysis is on the house, treatment will cost you dearly. Jim

[House of Darts]

I'm looking to purchase a turbo as a stocker. Yes it can probably qualify #1 during the summer weather, but my main reservation in purchasing one is the lack of consistancy. LOOK FOR #1 OR RUNNER UPS W/ A TURBO? I HAVE NOT FOUND ONE. And if there is one well, everyone needs to race one and get ready to collect their Wally.

[Jim Wahl]

Mr.Darts,
You are correct about consistency, it is a problem with turbo cars, sticks or autos. Intercooled turbos run better in the summer that non intercooled. They all run better in the cool weather just like non turbo cars. jim

[bill dedman]

Jim Wahl said, "Your data MUST include all races not just National events"

Not if my contention is that an inordinate amount of turbo cars qualify #1 at national events. That statement stands on its own and doesn't include points races, BECAUSE the problem doesn't exist at points races.

Why include a set of statistics from races that have no bearing on the subject? I am only concerned with the performance of these cars at NATIONAL EVENTS. Is that so hard to understand?

You accuse me of skewing the statistics, but once again, let me say that, the foir years I posted the qualifiers for, included every national event (plus Sportsnational) and nothing else. I identified each race where the qualifying was listed. I don't know what more I could have done. I used ALL the data for those races.

I am sure that NHRA will turn their customary blind eye to this problem, since fixing it wouldn't make them another red cent. You can relax; nobody's going to take your "above factory spec" boost away from you.

As far as my car goes, I wanted to retain my power steering, power brakes and air conditioning, because it's just a street car that sees action in Brackets from time-to-time. Your friend's big block turbo car might not have such parameters, I don't know. I have seen a ProCharger in a 440 oin a Duster, but it was pretty crowded... The oil pump sticks out where my power steering pump has to go...

I did finally have to give up the A/C in the interest of weight distribution (that cast 2-cylinder pump is H-E-A-V-Y....) but, I probably won't miss it.

Thanks again for all your efforts to explain away the unexplainable; it was entertaining.

[Jim Wahl]

I just want to be clear on this, you have no problem with above factory spec boost at Divisional or National Open races, that's not a problem, but only at National events the boost should be restricted. Do you not see how silly this sounds Bill? BTW Bill what class do you run? I can't seem to find your name on ANY of the many qualifying sheets I have gone over. I did answer your question, you just chose not to accept it. Now I have a question for you:

Why do you believe all other combinations deserve to be able to strive to use their equipment to its maximum legal limits but turbo combos should not be allowed? Please do not say "because I don't think it's fair". That makes you sound like a real whiner.

You know throughout the history of Drag Racing there have been combos that had advantages and also disadvantages. You have to weigh both and decide if it's worth racing. Every racer wants an advantage.Turbo cars may have their advantages but they certainly have their disadvantages. You don't hear me saying "hey my turbo car is inconsistent, you need to limit your car so it is as inconsistent as mine."

I don't think there is anything in the rule book that limits the number of times freaky one off combs can qualify #1. If that were true Bob Shaw would be a golfer not a drag racer. Jim

[Jim Wahl]

Here's another answer to your question, are you ready? Here you go...... BECAUSE THEY CAN!

Race cars don't race by demographics Bill. And this "problem" affects you how? Jim