Stick vs. Auto index

[Joe DeMarzo]

Evan, I do not disagree with anything you said technology wise but.....I still believe the stick shift car in the quarter mile is more efficient and faster et and MPH. If you put an automatic in your car do you think you would still run those numbers?

Yes there are alot of fast top stock and junior stock auto's in D-1 but the monsters are the stick shift car. You, Steve F jr and Steve F sr have out perfomed every auto this year. I hate to say Richie Atkins has not unloaded yet in top stock because that will side track this auto vs stick discussion. I know all the D-1 racers have worked their tails off testing and spend the frog skins, I applaud you all.

Before any one jumps in, I have no desire to build a stick car, a "soft combination". Keep this to stick vs auto. Great debate.

[Chuck Beach]

Evan,
I think your stick car runs pretty good at G weight ...

Sat, 21 Oct 2006, 05:53 PM
Junior Stock Qualifying, Final Order
MOHNTON, Pa. - Final order after one round of qualifying in Junior Stock at the NHRA, Pennsylvania Dutch Classic:

Psn---Num-Driver, Home Town, Car Type---------------Qual-ET--Qual-Spd-Top Spd

1 1798 Evan Smith, Linden NJ, '93 Mustang 10.860 121.76 121.76
2 1701 Bobby Twynam, Chatham NJ, '72 Nova 10.899 120.22 120.22
3 1534 Henry Kunz, Farmingdale NY, '69 Nova 10.900 120.34 120.34
4 1967 Jim Marshall, Scottsville NY, '80 Corvette 11.010 118.70 118.70
5 1137 Cecil Frazier, Canton MA, '91 Camaro 11.053 117.54 117.54
6 1454 Ken Kopecky, Edison NJ, '71 Demon 11.055 118.90 118.90
7 1035 Todd Hoven, Spotswood NJ, '72 GTO 11.060 117.91 117.91
8 1143 Johnny Williams, Smithfield RI, '71 Cutlass 11.087 118.13 118.13
9 1121 Lenny Williams, Poughkeepsie NY, '71 GranSport 11.135 117.65 117.65
10 1773 Dustan Lowell, Knsington NH, Duster 11.162 117.00 117.00
11 1142 Steve Ficacci, East Hanover NJ, '72 Camaro 11.166 117.00 117.00
12 1421 Kevin Fogerty Jr., Chalfont PA, '67 Camaro 11.381 116.15 116.15
13 1256 Len Abrahamson Jr., South Berwick ME, '72 Dust 11.423 116.15 116.15
14 17 Shane Oakes, Pipersville PA, '86 Camaro 11.492 116.98 116.98

[Jeff Lee]

Bruce, I'm only assuming you didn't follow the chart on post #1 or maybe you don't believe it. There ARE upwards of a 1/4 second differences on index, stick vs. auto, same class designation. And I guess I could spin it right back to you, what advantage are you trying to protect?
The bottom line is I picked a stick combination because I wanted too for the fun & challenge of racing a stick. I'm pretty sure that mentality would apply to the other stick racers. But I just fail to see why there should be any spread on indexes. The stick has numerous gear choices available just as the auto does, both OEM & aftermarket. I'm not even going to go what can be done to adjust a stocker trans for different leave times but we all know the technology is available and in use. Convertors and clutches have evolved tremendously in the last
10+ years. I've seen the significant improvements of putting a T-200 in place of a trick T-350, well over a tenth just as I've seen the significant improvements offered by new design / lighter clutch assemblies, also good for over a tenth. My point is not to show partiallity to either transmission; both have made huge advances over the factory offerings used in years past.
The direction of NHRA has been to let the AHFS handle any disproportionate ET advantages. And "whoppin'" the throttle to scrubb off ET is not something you really want to do in a stick car in order to avoid the AHFS. That seems to be something the autos do with ease...and regularity.

[Jeff Lee]

Originally Posted by Chuck Beach

Evan,
I think your stick car runs pretty good at G weight ...

Sat, 21 Oct 2006, 05:53 PM
Junior Stock Qualifying, Final Order
MOHNTON, Pa. - Final order after one round of qualifying in Junior Stock at the NHRA, Pennsylvania Dutch Classic:

Not sure what the relevance is of a race 2 years ago...

[Jeff Lee]

From NHRA.com a Comparrison of the stick vs. auto records in the "traditional" Superstock classes. I'll do Stock later.
Not only do the auto's seem to ET considerably quicker, the auto's seem to MPH considerably faster!
In fact, you'll see only two classes which have records on both sides have quicker ET's & MPH with a stick over auto, both held by Fords (428 & 289)!


SS/A 8.95 150.14 ------------------------SS/AA 8.67 153.68
SS/B 8.97 148.41 ------------------------SS/BA 8.86 150.37
SS/C 9.85 0.00 Minimum--------------- SS/CA 8.99 & SS/CA 148.46
SS/D 10.00 0.00 Minimum-------------- SS/DA 9.12 144.74
SS/E 10.05 0.00 Minimum-------------- SS/EA 9.32 143.40
SS/F 10.15 0.00 Minimum--------------SS/FA 9.60 134.91
SS/G 9.57 139.38 -----------------------SS/GA 9.67 135.83
SS/H 9.96 133.96------------------------SS/HA 9.63 136.50
SS/I 9.93 135.11 ------------------------SS/IA 9.54 137.50
SS/J 10.60 0.00 Minimum ------------- SS/JA 9.93 131.64
SS/K 10.31 127.51 ---------------------SS/KA 10.12 & SS/KA 0.00
SS/L 10.13 129.51 ---------------------SS/LA 10.52 & SS/LA 0.00
SS/M 11.40 0.00 Minimum ------------SS/MA 10.80 122.50
SS/N 11.75 0.00 Minimum ------------SS/NA 11.00 118.82
SS/O 12.00 0.00 Minimum ------------ SS/OA 11.62 115.46
SS/P 12.16 111.56----------------------SS/PA 11.55 113.91

[Jeff Lee]

So here are the Stock records from NHRA.com. Clearly, there does not seem to be an ET or MPH advantage to the stick cars. Auto's dominate both the ET & MPH records (of the classes contested on both sides).


AA/S 9.75 136.61 -----------------------AA/SA 9.71 134.24
A/S 10.75 0.00 Minimum---------------A/SA 9.78 & A/SA 0.00
B/S 11.00 0.00 Minimum --------------B/SA 10.16 129.82
C/S 10.40 128.11 ----------------------C/SA 10.33 & C/SA 0.00
D/S 10.56 & D/S 125.56 -------------D/SA 10.42 & D/SA 125.83
E/S 11.16 119.28-----------------------E/SA 10.49 123.94
F/S 10.89 119.40 --------------------- F/SA 10.69 122.86
G/S 10.98 121.12 --------------------- G/SA 11.80 0.00 Minimum
H/S 11.53 115.96 ----------------------H/SA 11.95 0.00 Minimum
I/S 11.18 119.32 -----------------------I/SA 11.26 116.40
J/S 11.46 114.82--------------------- -J/SA 11.37 & J/SA 114.07
K/S 11.59 112.62---------------------- K/SA 11.57 113.80
L/S 11.90 109.57 ---------------------L/SA 11.51 113.09
M/S 12.00 109.24---------------------M/SA 11.61 112.98
N/S 12.11 108.75--------------------- N/SA 12.80 0.00 Minimum
O/S 12.25 106.41--------------------- O/SA 12.15 108.71
P/S 12.39 108.58--------------------- P/SA 12.17 109.72
Q/S 13.45 0.00 Minimum------------ Q/SA 12.82 & Q/SA 101.53
R/S 13.75 0.00 Minimum -----------R/SA 13.01 103.14
T/S 14.20 0.00 Minimum-------------T/SA 13.27 98.77
U/S 13.94 96.09----------------------- U/SA 13.77 95.96
V/S 14.45 94.24----------------------- V/SA 14.56 92.21
W/S 15.83 82.27----------------------W/SA 16.45 0.00 Minimum

[JRyan]

Look at the SS/L and LA records. No difference there. I've also watched a couple SS/K cars run low 10.1's in less then desireable air. Robin Brown went in the 9's in good air. Advantage stick cars. Also remember Mike Cates' Comet SS/M car going in the 10's many years ago. Not many autos run in the 10's now unless the air is good. Again a lot of the preceived advantage of the automatic cars is the sheer volume of cars. Especially in SS. There aren't many stick SS cars and several run them just to run them.

Rick Ryan

[Real Racer]

Speaking of records, look at how many are at the minimum.
Using them as a comparison now is moot. They do not reflect the real world performance capabilities.
NHRA has taken all the fun and glory out of setting them so you see far fewer of the go fast guys chasing them these days.

As little as 5 years ago the records page was full and then you had a real comparison of stick vs auto.
Most of the stick records were as far or farther under the index as the autos.

In the 70's, as I recall the stick records in S/SS were a full second faster than the autos.
Jerry Ryan can probably back me up on this.

[Mark Faul]

How many of the records were set at altitude tracks? There are many variables in place. It's not really an apple to apple comparison.