AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation

[Bruce Noland]

Wow,

Nice response Bill. I feel better now. Thanks.

I have posted many, many times that I'm perfectly content with the original AHFS. The current AHFS is the problem and as far as I'm concerned it must be revoked. I'm not talking about tweaking a damn thing here. I'm talking about revoking the bogus version and going back to the system that we all voted on. Too many racers have been hurt by the latest round of hits to do anything else!

I brought up my feelings about the AHFS in response to Evan's post and feel the subject deserves a thread of its own. Time permitting I will try to post the two different versions of the AHFS on this forum.

[bill dedman]

Thanks, Bruce; that would be great!!! Needs to be done, I am sure.

Bill

[Jim Cimarolli]

Guys,

I don't think there is ever going to be an "automatic system" that is going to work fairly.
I feel that there should be a committee of people that vote on changes.
They can use the numbers compiled by the computer, but the final decisions need to be looked at and decided upon by humans.
For example: You have any given class in review. One very popular combo has triggered the review and is up for a hp correction. BUT! There is an obscure combo that runs the same class that is 2 tenths quicker than any car in the country that runs the combo that is up for review. THAT is the situation that needs human input, not a computer.
Combo's that need horsepower don't get it because some racers have the luxury of being able to manipulate the system, while others get a little bit of help from their friends and wind up with hp that should not have been added.

[LNorton]

You also have to remember that this is a shoe polish race in the long run...

[Chad Rhodes]

Originally Posted by LNorton

You also have to remember that this is a shoe polish race in the long run...

and thats the damn shame. Do aweay with the shoe polish and the AHFS will work itself out real fast, lol.

[Stewart Way]

Dick
You stated that an engine makes the same HP regardless of what car its in. Is that really true? I don't know but here is what I think. It varies. We have been doing dyno work lately and as you know if you rev the engine on an unloaded dyno it might make 60-70 hp. It takes resistance to develope torque. Now load the dyno for a 300 rev/sec pull and then a 600 rev/sec pull. Do you get the same hp numbers? No you don't. So if pulling at different rates nets different hp then doesn't it stand to reason that the same engine in a 3000lb car would make different hp than in a 4000 lb car because it will rev or pull at a different rate. Even a glide vs turbo 350 vs 4 speed could cause a motor to make different hp in the same car. No I don't think we need to consider all those factors in hp numbers but it does make a difference, I think.
I am no dyno expert for sure. These are just my thoughts and observations from the dyno and there may be something I'm missing that makes it worth about what you paid for it. I know I have gotten in trouble thinking before.

[bill dedman]

Stewart,

That's an interesting theory; certainly worthy of some discussion, I think!

I'd like to comment on that, if I may, and remember; this is only my opinion... I am no expert at anything, much less dynamometer engine testing, but it seems to me that...

If you're not specifically dyno-testing for just "peak" horsepower, but are testing for a horsepower CURVE, then the quicker you set the acceleration rate, the less horsepower will be left for the dyno to "see," because using a quicker acceleration parameter, the weight of the reciprocating AND rotating assembly will be creating more inertia-based parasitic drag, and will result in a smaller horsepower output number, as the engine accelerates its rpms.

BUT, I don't think that will be the case in a "peak horsepower-only" dyno test, using a static (peak) RPM, because there's no changes in the inertia at a steady rpm.

NHRA bases their factors on peak horsepower, probably because that's the way engines have tradirtionally been rated by the factories... the maximum output IS the rated horsepower. There's no easy way around that that I can see, insofar as assigning a factored horsepower rating is concerned.

So, the different accelerations in a dyno test, and the different output numbers they produce, probably wouldn't affect the peak rating, where the factors come from.

That's just my 2-cents... Your mileage (and, horsepower) may vary....

Bill

[Bruce Noland]

Jim,

There really is nothing machanical or automatic about Wesley's version. It has human hands all over it. We need to use the system the racers approved and maybe then allow human hands to influence the process but atleast some of the hands have to belong to actual racers. We all should know by now that the nhra staff is incapable letting the system function as originally designed.

You guys ever wonder why none of the nhra guys come out here to debate these AHFS problems? They are all over these sites on a daily basis.

[Dick Butler]

Thanks Stewart, I think the discussion by Bill is interesting one. Probably explains why one Dyno rates a motor concervatively and another seems higher for their motors. We used steady state before back to back so always had an idea going in if we gained.

Guys it will always be a Major calculation to take all the "factors " which can affect the deal into account. I do know this the bottom line of construction of a competitive S or SS car cannot be building a favorite motor or favorite body style. You have to research the aerodynamice, the HP rating as compared to others in class etc. I like different as much as other guys at a car show, at a cruise in but if you want to WIN in drag racing you have to be careful and plan ahead and use what is SHOWN to be a winner..Dont depend on bogus as that can go away quickly and then you have a Dog on your hands.
Look at AH. No risk takers there it is ALL the same stuff, you run one quick or slow its the same pieces.

AHFS. Weak by design. Needs more tuning using Air density at the time of runs. Needs to be tighter and without a reason to run fast more places it will always be weak. Bad if not documented to be legal at the time.

[Gary Smith]

Originally Posted by Bobby Lundholm

I guess what I have a problem with is that the FIA cars have the ability to run better in hotter weather since they can make adjustments depending on weather conditions.

Only in closed loop I thought. I don't even have an o2 sensor on my car. Add or subtract fuel just like re-jetting carbs. Not sure about the Alpha-N cars?