The Fall of Saigon...The End

[Eddies66]

At noon on April 30, a T-54 tank burst through the gates of the presidential palace, an act seen on television across the world. A few South Vietnamese units fought on in the Central Highlands and Mekong Delta for a while longer, but the Vietnam War was effectively over.

[Greg Reimer 7376]

This is one of those things that we can't allow to be forgotten. Thanks for your service,Eddie and all the rest that served and still serve today.

[Eddies66]

Originally Posted by Greg Reimer 7376

This is one of those things that we can't allow to be forgotten. Thanks for your service,Eddie and all the rest that served and still serve today.

This was a diplomatic nightmare, Ambassador Martin delayed the departure of Marines leaving 11 on the roof top for 24 hours. Martin had to be escorted and have the flag forced into his chest and shoved onto a departing helicopter. He wanted to negotiate with the North...Ambassador, it was over. The delay had already cost the lives of two Marines and the possibility of losing the remainder was imminent. Bob Mondo and Steve Schuller were later reassigned to New Delhli after the fall, got a first-hand briefing on exactly what went down.


Are you going to Irwindale on the 7th?

[Greg Reimer 7376]

Originally Posted by Eddies66

This was a diplomatic nightmare, Ambassador Martin delayed the departure of Marines leaving 11 on the roof top for 24 hours. Martin had to be escorted and have the flag forced into his chest and shoved onto a departing helicopter. He wanted to negotiate with the North...Ambassador, it was over. The delay had already cost the lives of two Marines and the possibility of losing the remainder was imminent. Bob Mondo and Steve Schuller were later reassigned to New Delhli after the fall, got a first-hand briefing on exactly what went down.


Are you going to Irwindale on the 7th?

Yes. I'm driving the Chevelle this time. I broke the Monte Carlo last time out. It's almost fixed, however. Are you going?

[jmcarter]

Think the movie Apocalypse Now (loved the scene with the Doors “The End”) did a great job capturing the lunacy of the war. For those who never served I don’t think they can comprehend FUBAR although the Afghanistan withdrawal might come close (with no accountability there either). Vietnam changed our country forever, it laid our soul on a skewer and that scar will exist forever. For those who are too young to have lived those times, your history lesson awaits if you watch the Ken Burns documentary on Vietnam. It provides a glimpse only but very worthwhile IMO.

Thanks Eddie

[Eddies66]

Originally Posted by Greg Reimer 7376

Yes. I'm driving the Chevelle this time. I broke the Monte Carlo last time out. It's almost fixed, however. Are you going?

Yes!

[Greg Reimer 7376]

Looks like we get to fix both cars now. I haven't had any racers luck for about two years now.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Greg Reimer 7376

This is one of those things that we can't allow to be forgotten. Thanks for your service,Eddie and all the rest that served and still serve today.

This nation hasn't entered or prosecuted a war with the intentions of winning for at least seventy years. It's inexcusable. Neither party is free of guilt. Worse still, wars are now run by politicians and lawyers, and the public is fed B.S. by the media, ALL of the media, for seventy plus years. And NOT the sort of things the media did during World War II.



Whether or not you believe any of the undeclared wars should have been initiated, or entered, once they were, the failure to pursue absolute victory is far more criminal than any decision to go to begin with.

[Eddies66]

1983-Granada (regime change), 1989-Panama (regime change), 1991-Iraq (defeated 4th largest military force in 48 hrs), 2003-Iraq (regime change), 2011-GWOT (bin Laden).

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Eddies66

1983-Granada (regime change), 1989-Panama (regime change), 1991-Iraq (defeated 4th largest military force in 48 hrs), 2003-Iraq (regime change), 2011-GWOT (bin Laden).

With all due respect, the first two were not wars. They were brief military actions of very limited scope. Those were pretty well run, and successful. Low number of casualties, relatively successful result.



Desert Shield/Desert Storm was a joint military action with a large coalition. It was relatively brief. It was also well run.Low casualty rate, somewhat short term successful result. Except that Hussein continued to remain in power, operate, threaten his neighbors, as well as fund, support, and sanction terrorists. It was necessary to maintain a large presence, and run constant operations to keep Iraq somewhat in check. And twelve years later, it was necessary to go back, in force, with fewer allies and less support.



While the 2003 war to remove Hussein was successful in the very beginning, Hussein was deposed, and eventually captured, however, long term it was an abject failure. The military was severely restricted in what they were allowed to do. Rarely were they allowed to fully engage the enemy and outright destroy them. Consider that, as ONE example, al-Sadr was allowed to live, and his organization allowed to survive, operate, and "participate in the government". This while he openly ran operations which killed U.S. personnel and their allies, and destabilized the new government. Rather than a complete defeat of the enemy, there were 15+ years of operations, presence, and casualties, with a very questionable result.


The 2011 operation to kill bin Laden was hardly a war. And it was a tiny part of the GWOT. Yes, the Seals and those who supported them did a great job of finally seeing to it that the ******* achieved room temperature. However, the "GWOT' as a whole has been poorly prosecuted. The eventual withdrawal from Afghanistan was an abject failure, and a disastrous embarrassment. Once again, after the short term success of the first part of the operation, there was a ludicrous "restricted warfare" policy, which caused unnecessary casualties, and prevented the total defeat and eradication of an enemy that practiced no such restraint. After the initial successes, there was an 18+ year period of lackluster results, because the military was not allowed to go out, and do what was necessary to win. In the end, the exit from Afghanistan bore a striking resemblance to the Fall of Saigon. Unnecessary casualties, embarrassment, and billions of dollars of military equipment abandoned, left for enemies to share, copy, improve, and use against the military.



As a person who was the son of a veteran of two wars, the nephew of three uncles who went to war, one of which never came home, and who, due to injury was not very welcome in the military, I have an extreme respect and admiration for our military. I have dozens of friends and relatives who have given a lifetime, as you have. It angers me to no end to see the military abused in the manner which has been almost customary since the end of the second World War.



While I believe that there ARE reason why battles MUST be fought, I also believe that if you tell a man he should go fight, you should NEVER restrict his ability to seek out and destroy the enemy, with maximum effort, excellent results, and the least possible risk. "Restricted warfare", with "limited rules of engagement", written by lawyers and politicians, are criminal policies. So are vague and obtuse "objectives".


These policies obviously do not work. There was no such "restricted warfare" in the war with Japan. Yet, since the end of World War II, and the brief occupation, Japan has become an extremely stable and reliable friend and ally. While not quite as reliable and friendly as Japan, Germany has been stable, and reliable. So these policies used after World War II just don't work. They're NOT an improvement. They're a complete and abject failure.



The United States military is the finest in the world, and the vast majority of its personnel are some of the very best humans on the planet. Unfortunately, a large portion of our government, criminally corrupt and morally bankrupt as it has become, sees that military, and those personnel as expendable pawns.