Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races - Page 11

Signman · 11-29-2007, 06:48 PM

Was told the 2008 is the last year for the rotation of classes at national events. The end of the trial.

2009 all classes will run at all national events. Car count will be cut as X amount of cars can be run down the track on a given day within the time constraints. Logistical issues are just a fact of life. If you want to run a national you are going to need them grade points.

LNorton · 11-29-2007, 07:12 PM

As far as I am concerned, I will still concentrate on using my shoe polish since we are under the index.

Bruce Noland · 11-29-2007, 08:23 PM

Mr. Buckingham,

You sound very much in the know on all things nhra or possibly some one is retro fitting the news for you. After cleaning your nose can you please tell me who will be discussing what at the PRI show? Specifics please!

Lynn A McCarty · 11-29-2007, 08:43 PM

There are rules of engagement that must be followed when doing statistical evaluations. Some are assumptions. Some assumptions are statistically significant, some are not. This is why no system is perfect.

However, you cannot have a valid system that is not mathematically accurate. If NASA did it the AHFS way, they would have missed the moon entirely. It is only the manual joy stick that keeps in on track. (The good people adding some sense to it)

One thing that is perfectly clear, you must correct to sea level or some other standard. Yes there would be some inaccuracies, but a 10.00 run at 5000 feet is not the same as a 9.80 run at sea level. Most racers have the software in their trailers to calculate all of this. It isnt that hard to do.

Yes if a set of numbers are found to be inaccurate, then you gotta throw them out. The statistical method of standard deviation can be found on any Excel Spread Sheet or any high school science book. It is the only right way to do things. It separates the individual outstanding performances from bogus HP and bogus parts acquisition.

Even doing it the right way is difficult, can you imagine the mistakes doing it the wrong way? I would say an engine family that averages 1.15(without sandbagging) under to an engine family that averages 0.7 is an egregious difference. If we have a AHFS, then how does this condition currently exist if it is working?

My guess to equalize these two would be about 70HP?(assuming 15HP a tenth?) How many 3-4HP adders would we do? How long would it take? I assure you there are many engines that fit this category and worse.

Lynn

SSDiv6 · 11-29-2007, 09:20 PM

You do not need an Excel spreadsheet to do it. It is easy to do a computer program that would adjust the numbers based on weather conditions and actual track altitude. The computer program called Density, that was created by Pat Hale, can be modified to do so. Nevertheless, Pat sold all the program rights to the owner of speedtalk.com. NHRA should hire Pat Hale to develop a computer program to do the adjustments properly and scientifically, and take away the "Human Interest/Factor" from the adjustments.

Mark Yacavone · 11-29-2007, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GP Hill

The simple thing to do is count all runs at National events including all class runs. This is not a big change but would have a big effect on soft combos.

Greg

Greg has it right and Bruce has it right also. NHRA is not going to do a darn thing that takes alot of time and manpower. Why do you think they implemented the AHFS in the first place? Why do you think they don't count runs that are not on the Q sheet? Nitro Joe has all the numbers . They are not that hard to find.
I'll say it again. Count all runs at Nationals . Forget Div's . You want your combo hit by somebody that is claiming the small cam motor ,when they really should be carrying 20 -30 more HP? Don't think it has not been done.

Speedracer · 11-29-2007, 10:35 PM

If the runs at the Divisional races are not going to be included in the AHFS,they why have any heads- up races at Divisionals?
Isn't the purpose of the AHFS to try and equalize the combinations,so if everyone worked hard on their combo,then theoretically it would be an even race?
If there is no AHFS at Divisionals,then just get rid of it altogether.When some cars run over 1.15 under with a 20 mph headwind in 4000 ft corrected air,I would kind of like to see how fast they could go at sea level anyways.I'm thinking several combos are capable of 1.6-1.7 under if they really went for the killer pass.Not legal,of course,but still impressive!

Mark Yacavone · 11-29-2007, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedracer

If the runs at the Divisional races are not going to be included in the AHFS,they why have any heads- up races at Divisionals?
Isn't the purpose of the AHFS to try and equalize the combinations,so if everyone worked hard on their combo,then theoretically it would be an even race?
If there is no AHFS at Divisionals,then just get rid of it altogether.When some cars run over 1.15 under with a 20 mph headwind in 4000 ft corrected air,I would kind of like to see how fast they could go at sea level anyways.I'm thinking several combos are capable of 1.6-1.7 under if they really went for the killer pass.Not legal,of course,but still impressive!

Asked and answered.
I'm sure you remember , being the veteran racer you are, when there were teardowns at Divisionals.
Again , it comes down to manpower and effort. It just ain't gonna happen nowadays.

Lynn A McCarty · 11-29-2007, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSDiv6

You do not need an Excel spreadsheet to do it. It is easy to do a computer program that would adjust the numbers based on weather conditions and actual track altitude. The computer program called Density, that was created by Pat Hale, can be modified to do so. Nevertheless, Pat sold all the program rights to the owner of speedtalk.com. NHRA should hire Pat Hale to develop a computer program to do the adjustments properly and scientifically, and take away the "Human Interest/Factor" from the adjustments.

Actually any simple program could do it or anyone knowing how to do spc methods and data entry. Excel has it or any other compute programs. It isnt rocket science more like High School Science.

Lynn

Dave Ribeiro · 11-29-2007, 11:29 PM

Hey Mark,

You + Greg are both right.. The other thing that needs to stop is giving ANY HP without a teardown first to be sure they are legal... How many times were they torn down later and found illegal...But the HP aways stayed and never was reduced ..This should always happen any time you get HP added... Yes, all runs during National events should count... I think this would be a good first step..........Dave,

11-29-2007, 06:48 PM	#101
Signman Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lower Slower Delaware Posts: 535 Likes: 22 Liked 269 Times in 99 Posts	Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races Was told the 2008 is the last year for the rotation of classes at national events. The end of the trial. 2009 all classes will run at all national events. Car count will be cut as X amount of cars can be run down the track on a given day within the time constraints. Logistical issues are just a fact of life. If you want to run a national you are going to need them grade points. __________________ Frank Ferrucci I/SA 1271 "Be Thankful for the Gifts You are Given"

11-29-2007, 07:12 PM	#102
LNorton Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: RacerTees.com Posts: 505 Likes: 0 Liked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races As far as I am concerned, I will still concentrate on using my shoe polish since we are under the index. __________________ Lee Norton - N229 STK IHRA H/FIA - NHRA O/SA RacerTees.com

11-29-2007, 08:23 PM	#103
Bruce Noland VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,855 Likes: 83 Liked 444 Times in 145 Posts	Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races Mr. Buckingham, You sound very much in the know on all things nhra or possibly some one is retro fitting the news for you. After cleaning your nose can you please tell me who will be discussing what at the PRI show? Specifics please! __________________ Bruce Noland 1788 STK

11-29-2007, 08:43 PM	#104
Lynn A McCarty Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Plainfield (INDY) Indiana Posts: 468 Likes: 1 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races There are rules of engagement that must be followed when doing statistical evaluations. Some are assumptions. Some assumptions are statistically significant, some are not. This is why no system is perfect. However, you cannot have a valid system that is not mathematically accurate. If NASA did it the AHFS way, they would have missed the moon entirely. It is only the manual joy stick that keeps in on track. (The good people adding some sense to it) One thing that is perfectly clear, you must correct to sea level or some other standard. Yes there would be some inaccuracies, but a 10.00 run at 5000 feet is not the same as a 9.80 run at sea level. Most racers have the software in their trailers to calculate all of this. It isnt that hard to do. Yes if a set of numbers are found to be inaccurate, then you gotta throw them out. The statistical method of standard deviation can be found on any Excel Spread Sheet or any high school science book. It is the only right way to do things. It separates the individual outstanding performances from bogus HP and bogus parts acquisition. Even doing it the right way is difficult, can you imagine the mistakes doing it the wrong way? I would say an engine family that averages 1.15(without sandbagging) under to an engine family that averages 0.7 is an egregious difference. If we have a AHFS, then how does this condition currently exist if it is working? My guess to equalize these two would be about 70HP?(assuming 15HP a tenth?) How many 3-4HP adders would we do? How long would it take? I assure you there are many engines that fit this category and worse. Lynn __________________ Lynn A McCarty 3470 SS

11-29-2007, 09:20 PM	#105
SSDiv6 VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Glendale, Arizona Posts: 3,044 Likes: 712 Liked 1,580 Times in 582 Posts	Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races You do not need an Excel spreadsheet to do it. It is easy to do a computer program that would adjust the numbers based on weather conditions and actual track altitude. The computer program called Density, that was created by Pat Hale, can be modified to do so. Nevertheless, Pat sold all the program rights to the owner of speedtalk.com. NHRA should hire Pat Hale to develop a computer program to do the adjustments properly and scientifically, and take away the "Human Interest/Factor" from the adjustments.

11-29-2007, 10:35 PM	#107
Speedracer Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 59 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races If the runs at the Divisional races are not going to be included in the AHFS,they why have any heads- up races at Divisionals? Isn't the purpose of the AHFS to try and equalize the combinations,so if everyone worked hard on their combo,then theoretically it would be an even race? If there is no AHFS at Divisionals,then just get rid of it altogether.When some cars run over 1.15 under with a 20 mph headwind in 4000 ft corrected air,I would kind of like to see how fast they could go at sea level anyways.I'm thinking several combos are capable of 1.6-1.7 under if they really went for the killer pass.Not legal,of course,but still impressive!

11-29-2007, 11:29 PM	#110
Dave Ribeiro VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Williamsburg, Va.---USA Posts: 1,827 Likes: 1,612 Liked 56 Times in 27 Posts	Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races Hey Mark, You + Greg are both right.. The other thing that needs to stop is giving ANY HP without a teardown first to be sure they are legal... How many times were they torn down later and found illegal...But the HP aways stayed and never was reduced ..This should always happen any time you get HP added... Yes, all runs during National events should count... I think this would be a good first step..........Dave, __________________ Dave Ribeiro 1033 STK