Lack of integrity

[Jack McCarthy]

thanks for remembering chuck... yeah i got the screws 4 years ago when bob built the oldsmocaddy... with the olds motor rated at 35hp less in the caddy than it is in an olds. no one was upset or running to defend the "old school" car i was just S.O.L. ! i can never outrun the caddy... maybe - just maybe with another (that will make 4) AHFS hit he will go away to T/SA

however i will point out a few differences in the situation

1. bob found a car that was actually built and had been in the book for 20 years, GM did not put a paper car into my class

2. bob has not been helped or encouraged by GM to kick my ***

3. bob is a great racer and a nice guy, if someone was gonna end my reign as U/SA hitter at least it was bob... not some prick with a couple of million dollars and a Ford racing jacket.

captain jack

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by Jack McCarthy

thanks for remembering chuck... yeah i got the screws 4 years ago when bob built the oldsmocaddy... with the olds motor rated at 35hp less in the caddy than it is in an olds. no one was upset or running to defend the "old school" car i was just S.O.L. ! i can never outrun the caddy... maybe - just maybe with another (that will make 4) AHFS hit he will go away to T/SA

however i will point out a few differences in the situation

1. bob found a car that was actually built and had been in the book for 20 years, GM did not put a paper car into my class

2. bob has not been helped or encouraged by GM to kick my ***

3. bob is a great racer and a nice guy, if someone was gonna end my reign as U/SA hitter at least it was bob... not some prick with a couple of million dollars and a Ford racing jacket.

captain jack

Aw Jeez Jack.Now you probably pissedoff Fomoco,and there going to release a 220CI
blown injected nitrous assisted camaro rated at 140 HP to run Q-U/SA.We're toast.
Ah, maybe all of us but Billy.He might still have a trick up his sleeve.

[RULER]

Well said Captian Jack, just add mopar jacket and it's covered!!!!

[Dean Roberts]

Jack, your response is bitter and you missed some important facts so I will fill in the blanks.

1. bob found a car that was actually built and had been in the book for 20 years, GM did not put a paper car into my class

All cars in the guide are built, at least 50 of them. There have been GM paper cars. Ford and Dodge did, in fact, build these cars by the letter of the NHRA rules to fit in Stock, and anyone had a chance to get one, or you can build your own. Who cars how long they have been around? An underfactored car is just that, and it doesn't matter which class or how long it's been hiding in the books. I'm not arguing that they are underrated.

2. bob has not been helped or encouraged by GM to kick my ***

Only because it he runs cars that no one cares about. He picked a class to take advantage of the system, good for him. BTW, Ford and Dodge did the same thing. If you don't think GM was thrilled about racers kicking butt with underrated LT and LS cars you are misinformed or one-sided.

3. bob is a great racer and a nice guy, if someone was gonna end my reign as U/SA hitter at least it was bob... not some prick with a couple of million dollars and a Ford racing jacket.

So someone is a prick because they have done well in life and have money to spend? Have you been to an NHRA race lately and seen the rigs, cars and paint jobs? That would account for 3/4 of the sportsman pits, so 3/4 of the racers are pricks? I think there are a lot of DP and CJ racers who love the brands and want to be a part of history. They may not understand NHRA racing they way you do, but they spent the money and want to run the balls off these cars. Wasn't that the original intent of the class?

[Dgal]

Dean,

There have never been any cars in the guide that resemble what Ford and Dodge are putting on the tracks that didn't fall into Factory Experimental or something similar. To compare these cars to what has been in the guide under normal circumstances is disingenuous.

Don

[Alan Roehrich]

You forgot one thing, Dean. The NHRA Stock Eliminator rules were rewritten to allow cars that were never certified for production, never met any federal or state emissions or safety standards, and even some that were never even assembled by the factory, ever.

We now have some cars in Stock Eliminator that have engines that the OEM's never put in any car, ever.

That is something entirely different than even any of the previous "paper cars", GM, Ford, or Chrysler. Go ahead and bring up the 98 LT-1 F body. At least the LT-1 was installed by the factory and sold to the public in some car, in some year, at some time. At least it was emissions certified for sale and use on public roads.

What's next, cars that were never sold to the public in any form?After all, they're already listing package cars that never even ran, and won't even move under their own power when you buy them, in the guide.

No matter what else happens, Stock Eliminator has been changed radically. There is now a loophole that you could drive anything through, with a little help from an OEM.

[Dean Roberts]

I will agree with Don.

Alan, how many ZL-1 Camaros and Vettes have you seen driving around lately? There are many Stockers, albeit cool ones, that were built in limited numbers. Please show me where the rules were re-written? The DPs and CJs are produced and certified. Maybe not for the street, but Stockers never had to be, on 50 had to be built of a certain body style.

We get it, they are underrated and many racers are unhappy. But as you can see, the cars are taking hits on a regular basis and it will all work out.

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by Dean Roberts

Jack, your response is bitter and you missed some important facts so I will fill in the blanks.

1. bob found a car that was actually built and had been in the book for 20 years, GM did not put a paper car into my class

All cars in the guide are built, at least 50 of them. There have been GM paper cars. Ford and Dodge did, in fact, build these cars by the letter of the NHRA rules to fit in Stock, and anyone had a chance to get one, or you can build your own. Who cars how long they have been around? An underfactored car is just that, and it doesn't matter which class or how long it's been hiding in the books. I'm not arguing that they are underrated.

2. bob has not been helped or encouraged by GM to kick my ***

Only because it he runs cars that no one cares about. He picked a class to take advantage of the system, good for him. BTW, Ford and Dodge did the same thing. If you don't think GM was thrilled about racers kicking butt with underrated LT and LS cars you are misinformed or one-sided.

3. bob is a great racer and a nice guy, if someone was gonna end my reign as U/SA hitter at least it was bob... not some prick with a couple of million dollars and a Ford racing jacket.

So someone is a prick because they have done well in life and have money to spend? Have you been to an NHRA race lately and seen the rigs, cars and paint jobs? That would account for 3/4 of the sportsman pits, so 3/4 of the racers are pricks? I think there are a lot of DP and CJ racers who love the brands and want to be a part of history. They may not understand NHRA racing they way you do, but they spent the money and want to run the balls off these cars. Wasn't that the original intent of the class?

I agree that Bob is a great racer and like Billy Ness and Neil Smedley, they are good at looking at combinations.
The truth is there is a different angle to the inception of Bob's combination that only a few know.

Bob's combination, although the car was manufactured with the EFI Oldsmobile engine, was never in the books from the beginning. Neil Smedley is the person that came up with the possibilities of how such combination would run in Stock.

I did some research on the combination and got all the data sheets from the engineers at Cadillac Motorsports at the time. They were still involved in drag racing with the FWD cars. During a discussion with Bob Dennis, he said he would like to explore this combination in SS class. I provided Bob with copies of the documents and we both submitted the information to NHRA.

NHRA did not approve the engine combination and said it was too old of an engine to be approved. Even Travis said the same thing on this board when this subject was brought up on this board many years ago.

One year later, Randy Mans approached me as asked me if I still had the data because he had talked to his division director and also Bob Lang and they told him they would take a look at it for approval. Randy got the information and later on, the engine combination was added to the books. Neil Smedley also talked to Bob about this combination and I consider Neil the person that came up with the combination.

So, in a nutshell, it is who you know at NHRA to get things approved.

As regards to those that spend money in their cars, there are many successful racers outside of this sport and have the money to do and build whatever they please. Many of you would be doing the same if you had the resources. Therefore, I consider criticism of the way their spend their money on their cars out of context.

[Michael Beard]

So, in a nutshell, it is who you know at NHRA to get things approved.

I heard a story about one guy who requested HP off of a combo and the answer was "Not if YOU'RE building it!"

with the olds motor rated at 35hp less in the caddy than it is in an olds.

Um... can someone explain to me how an engine makes a different amount of horsepower in a different body (sans a fresh-air system)?

[Bruce Noland]

Originally Posted by Dean Roberts

I will agree with Don.

Alan, how many ZL-1 Camaros and Vettes have you seen driving around lately? There are many Stockers, albeit cool ones, that were built in limited numbers. Please show me where the rules were re-written? The DPs and CJs are produced and certified. Maybe not for the street, but Stockers never had to be, on 50 had to be built of a certain body style.

We get it, they are underrated and many racers are unhappy. But as you can see, the cars are taking hits on a regular basis and it will all work out.

1990's nhra rule book: Stock

Sixty classes reserved for 1960-or-newer model-year American factory-production automobiles and some foreign and domestic sports cars. Classified per nhra performance rating as listed in the official nhra Stock Car Classification Guide. Only those cars listed in the Guide are eligible for competition. All cars in Stock classes must be factory-production assembled, showroom available and in the hands of the general public. AF through FF class cars limited to 1978 or newer.

But never wishing to miss out on some easy, fast cash this little diddy was added:

OEM may apply for inclusion of any special production runs into the Official nhra Stock Car Classification Guide. Special run must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available. Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precendent.

The apologists for these cars continue to say - Hey look guys the AHFS is doing it's job and it's only a matter of time before they are rated fairly. How damn gullible do you think we are? We know what has happened here. This issue has festered for nearly two years and it will continue to fester until these new cars are in their own classes or the nhra executives responsible for this mess are fired.