worst red light debate, again!

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

Bill,
Your response assumes NHRA is stupid and not capable of forward thinking. You also make an assumption if NHRA made or did not make a decision, it was publicly known. I would argue that would never be the case. It doesn't happen in this day of instant access so I see no way it would have gone beyond board room doors.
The scenario I presented is one I would devise if I were starting a "new" handicap form of racing and wanted to move the sport forward.

You also have a key note of NHRA providing a "level playing field". Where is that published and to what is that term assigned too?

I know this, NOTHING in life is "level" except maybe birth. After that, all the rules change!

"Your response assumes NHRA is stupid."

Do you think that assigning a horsepower factor of 425 to a supercharged, fuel injected, 331 c.i.d., 4-valve engine that is easily capable of 750 hp is smart? I rest my case on that one...

A "level playing field" is just another way of saying that it is understood that one of NHRA's main priorities is to keep in place, rules, regulations and enforcement in order to provide the most FAIR racing conditions as possible, for all competitors, as far as they can achieve this.

Why else would they have Draconian inspection procedures, and rules aimed at making things fair for everybody??? It's all there to maintain a "level playing field" as best they can make it.. Is that not true?

Otherwise, there would BE no tear down barns, techs walking around with with magnets in their hands, and an AHFS (regardless of how slow and ineffective it is.)

Generally, they TRY to keep things as fair as they can... if for no other reason than to keep from having to deal with feedback from unhappy customers who have been screwed by an unfair system.

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by John Lang

Who started this CRAP, and woke up these guys with there never ending first or worst CRAP! IT IS WHAT IS!!!! Get over it, and What Mike said X2.......Later, John

"Who started it"????

NHRA started it in 1963 when they set in motion a system that provides unequal treatment for firat-to-leave and second-to-leave competitors in handicap racing.

You can blame them...

It is what it is, but it doesn't have to be. There once was a "first-to-break out" system, but they realized that that doesn't make sense, so they changed it.

This is just more of the same, and they need to change IT, now that they can.

I can't see any reason to live with an unfair rule, can you?

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by david ring

Billy,

To quote the Talking Heads: "Stop Making Sense."

That makes NO SENSE, since changing to a "worst red light" rule won't change your leaving on a clean tree. You will still have that under a worse red light rule.

It does, however point out that even with this plethora of posts, there are still people who don't understand all the vagaries of this different system.

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Bimbo Jones

Right back atcha Bill. Ya just lost one of the two people that was on your side on this one. Don't get wet!

If that's all it takes to lose you, you weren't very convinced in the first place.

Is BIMBO your real name?

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Mike Carr

Bill, to answer your often-asked question, NO, there is NO good reason why we have the current system. Anyone with an IQ over twenty can see that the rule is unfair. Happy?

The thing that bothers the majority of us, is the fact that you and a few others bring this old subject up time and time again. We're just sick of reading it. Myself (and others) have politely asked you, and people of your ilk, to please stop posting this stuff every few months, get off your ***, and actually go out and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

And, while you're at it, get NHRA to fix the other issues that are wrong with our sport, issues much more important than a first or worst redlight rule that might come into play 5% of the time, or less. Fix the payouts, fix the rising costs/fees, fix the run schedule, fix the AHFS, fix the track conditions, fix Class Eliminations, and all the other nonsense NHRA has shoved upon us over the past 5-10 years.

Mike, thank you for your moment of clarity, and for agreeing that this rule is unfair.

Not many of the detractors on this board are willing to admit that.

I hammer on this point because it is so STUPID for NHRA to allow something that affects us all, to go on, month-after- month, year-after-year, when the fix for it is so easily implemented and cheap. I see it as an insult to everybody racing, to have to put up with it.

None of the problems you brought up have a lifespan of 48 years... nor do any of them have the option oif such an easy fix.

Let's fix what we CAN, and worry about the hard ones, later.

[Toby Lang]

Originally Posted by Hagen Gary

That’s what I'm saying. If the green lights don't come on until the faster car leaves the line, then the faster car has a better judgment of where he's at on the tree.

You're not quite understanding what I'm saying. When the slower car leaves his green light will come on just like normal -- even if he red lights. The red light won't come on until after the faster cars leaves.

Everything will happen just like it does now, except the red light won't be displayed until both cars have left the line. So you can judge your light off the green just like before.


-Toby

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Hagen Gary

Ohhh, let me hurry up and get my post in.

I'm on both sides of this. Slow car in SS (for div 4 anyway), Fast car in Stock and I like the rule the way it is. As someone already pointed out, I like to have a clean tree. There is an advantage to that. Especially if you’re a blinder racer. If you take away my green light coming on, you also take away my ability to more accurately estimate my RT by when the green comes on. Is that good enough Mr. Bill?

No, Hagen, this s not about "fast cars" or "slow cars," because it will effect every car in the Eliminator except the one, fastest car. Like an AA/S car, for instance. That car (unless it's a slug) will NEVER leave first.

Additionally, it is a losing battle to try to assess "advantages" like a "clean tree" that will come into play because there is a never-ending list of advantages/disadvantages to running ANY car (slow cars are affected by the weather and wind, more than faster cars; faster cars have traction problems that slower cars don't have) etc., etc., etc....

You just can't legislate advantages/disadvantages, so we need to go with the program that gives an advantage to NOBODY... the worse red light system.

[Bob Mulry]

[ faster cars have traction problems that slower cars don't have) etc., etc., etc...]

I guess that you didn't see my earlier post about ALWAYS dialing slower than your opponent so that you won't spin your tires.....

Bob

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Hagen Gary

That’s what I'm saying. If the green lights don't come on until the faster car leaves the line, then the faster car has a better judgment of where he's at on the tree. I know it sounds a bit funny, but I can tell if I was closer to .000 or .040 by when the green light starts to come on as I pass the tree. Two totally different spots in my window. Take that away and you take away that advantage from the slower car and give it to the faster one. Hope I didn’t give away any secrets, we all know you guys don’t need any more help. I'm just wondering if Mr. Bill considers this one reason against changing the rule or not.

The handicap is set.... let's say it's one second. My green light comes on and STAYS on until one second later, when YOUR green light comes on.

How is that different than what we're doing currently, except that if the first car to leave red lights, with the current system, his red light will come on immediately and your green light will NEVER come on, because you're the winner, never having had YOUR chance to red light.

Do you see where you need to have a chance to red light, too, or there is an unfair jeopardy for the first car to leave? He had to cut a green light to have a chance to win, but you never did.

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Bob Mulry

[ faster cars have traction problems that slower cars don't have) etc., etc., etc...]

I guess that you didn't see my earlier post about ALWAYS dialing slower than your opponent so that you won't spin your tires.....

Bob

Well, yes I did see it, but I'm not sure it has any relevance in this discussion. Tell me what that has to do with the worse red light rule topic... please.

I am way thick-headed; I really don't understand... Ask Ed; he'll tell you.