GM axes performance division - Page 2

Don Whitmore · 02-19-2009, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Williams

When things were good it was everybody's friend (the big three). But when things go bad the true colors come out and people with no knowledge whatsoever about the GM problem throw rocks. Paul-What do you know about the UAW? Why is this their fault? Ed-You might get your wish and when the others fall( and trust me they will) you will be stuck driving a generic Foreign piece of crap. Tow with one of these so called trucks from the Japanese automakers and let me know how it works out. Sean-Get a grip, the cutting back was a necessary evil to save a few dollars and last that I seen KJ was still sporting their colors. Am I wrong? Jeff-thanks for the post, the article is an interesting one and something that in my town has been known for months. Their is plenty of blame to go around in this deal, so research it and then blame all guilty parties. BREAKING NEWS-Toyota is laying off people in the United States! You gentlemen (not including Jeff Lee) have not a clue about what the deal is about this GM crisis and what the consequences could be if GM falls. I see it everyday in my community and it is sad. Hope you never have to go through what people in my area live with everyday. Spend some of your time online looking at the Detroit News or the Detroit Freepress or the local Detroit television news broadcasts to get a better idea of what the real deal is.

This is not opinion, but the brutal truth.....

Have a nice day,

Steve Williams

Steve...I couldn't agree more.

Interesting to note GM has produced guns, airplanes and military engines that supported this country in time of war. What about that?

GM has an incredible technological base, but their current cost structure is prohibitive. Management has made mistakes, but this company deserves to survive.

goinbroke2 · 02-19-2009, 10:34 PM

I'm a Ford guy but I support our own first. GM as well as mopar needs support. It's not uaw's fault or any other one thing but a perfect storm that finally done them in. Mismanagement at the top, poor quality, bad service, think I'm talking about domestic's? How about toyota in the 70's! They found out their rusted out underpowered, uncomfortable tin cans can't compete head to head so they figured out what race to win. The quality one! And with that turn around they started building bigger, more comfortable and powerful cars.

The same will happen with the domestic's. Toyota proved it can't build a full size work truck, hell honda's is a FWD unibody car with a built in box! But the domestic's have been changing and in the last two years ford and chev both have trucks that will get 21mpg. Ford is now on par or better than japanese quality and has the most 5 star safety rated vehicles on the planet! The new fusion hybrid gets 8mpg better than the camry hybrid. There is a lot to be proud of only many years of dealerships denying warranty or pissing customers off has left a bad taste in consumers mouths. Once the nay sayers and anti domestic bashers realize that the quality is up on domestic's and on par with anything else offered, the tide will slowly change.

Times will be tough for GM and mopar. If they fail it could drag ford down too as well as foreign automakers who use the same suppliers.

Times are tough but don't give up on the same companies that built tanks/aicraft/etc for this country in it's time of need!

GO GM!

Ed Fernandez · 02-19-2009, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Williams

When things were good it was everybody's friend (the big three). But when things go bad the true colors come out and people with no knowledge whatsoever about the GM problem throw rocks. Paul-What do you know about the UAW? Why is this their fault? Ed-You might get your wish and when the others fall( and trust me they will) you will be stuck driving a generic Foreign piece of crap. Tow with one of these so called trucks from the Japanese automakers and let me know how it works out. Sean-Get a grip, the cutting back was a necessary evil to save a few dollars and last that I seen KJ was still sporting their colors. Am I wrong? Jeff-thanks for the post, the article is an interesting one and something that in my town has been known for months. Their is plenty of blame to go around in this deal, so research it and then blame all guilty parties. BREAKING NEWS-Toyota is laying off people in the United States! You gentlemen (not including Jeff Lee) have not a clue about what the deal is about this GM crisis and what the consequences could be if GM falls. I see it everyday in my community and it is sad. Hope you never have to go through what people in my area live with everyday. Spend some of your time online looking at the Detroit News or the Detroit Freepress or the local Detroit television news broadcasts to get a better idea of what the real deal is.

This is not opinion, but the brutal truth.....

Have a nice day,

Steve Williams

In an earlier post I did bash Chrysler and I still feel they deserve it.They have been building cars that aren't keeping current with real world situations.I have a 1999 Dakota I tow with and I love the truck.Their
problem is with the cars.They flat out get **** gas milage.Being taken over 3 times since the early 80s hasn't helped their image.This gas problem didn't start recently and they never worked to raise fuel milage in the cars.GM still hasnm't learned to stop the model duplication accross brand lines.Let GMC build trucks,Chevy bread and butter cars,buick more upscale cars and Pontiac sportier cars and let Cadillac be what Cadillac used to be.Hummer should have been dumped before they came out with the H3.And I wish I could get 80% of my pay for sitting on my *** when things got slow.Auto workers have known their jobs were not 12 month guaranteed,that's why they get a high rate of pay.And the Jap cars are laying off only because us poor suckers dont have the money to buy ANY new cars.And BTW I have never bought and very infrequently ridden in a Jap car and I'm 63 years old.And I race a car that parts are not the easiest to come by.They are out there,sometimes having to be either fabricated or modified.I can't go to an AMC dealer or Summit/Jegs like the big 3 for some of my stuff.The ironic part would be if a Jap or Korean co. bought a majority share into one of the big 3.
And Detroit hasn't been a suburb of Beverly Hills for a long time.

Ed F.
From the Socialist State
of New Jersey

GarysZ24 · 02-19-2009, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

I'm a Ford guy but I support our own first. GM as well as mopar needs support. It's not uaw's fault or any other one thing but a perfect storm that finally done them in. Mismanagement at the top, poor quality, bad service, think I'm talking about domestic's? How about toyota in the 70's! They found out their rusted out underpowered, uncomfortable tin cans can't compete head to head so they figured out what race to win. The quality one! And with that turn around they started building bigger, more comfortable and powerful cars.

The same will happen with the domestic's. Toyota proved it can't build a full size work truck, hell honda's is a FWD unibody car with a built in box! But the domestic's have been changing and in the last two years ford and chev both have trucks that will get 21mpg. Ford is now on par or better than japanese quality and has the most 5 star safety rated vehicles on the planet! The new fusion hybrid gets 8mpg better than the camry hybrid. There is a lot to be proud of only many years of dealerships denying warranty or pissing customers off has left a bad taste in consumers mouths. Once the nay sayers and anti domestic bashers realize that the quality is up on domestic's and on par with anything else offered, the tide will slowly change.

Times will be tough for GM and mopar. If they fail it could drag ford down too as well as foreign automakers who use the same suppliers.

Times are tough but don't give up on the same companies that built tanks/aicraft/etc for this country in it's time of need!

GO GM!

Steve, I wish I could shake your hand and pop a cold one with you man (plus the people from Janesville, Wi., who built my Z24 Cavalier DF/S race car)...you realize that I'm still running the same drive axles that were put in the car by those great Americans??? That's been 70k street miles, and well over 500 1/4 mile passes with water burnouts dominating the total!!! In my line of work I get to deliver auto parts to service shops, and dealers and most of the time I'm delivering axles to them they're for Japanese Import cars!!

Now Going Broke 2, the reason I'm quoting you, is because some of what you said I was mixed over:

1. You forgot to add oil burning to the list of problems with the Japanese cars of the 70's (heck I last year saw a Lexus...A LEXUS, with blue smoke (oil) coming from its exhaust!!??). I don't really know when they started building great cars, because my former mechanic from San Antonio (now), had a neighbor who had a Honda (his daughters car), and they couldn't even repair the fuel system that messed up on her car.

2. Toyota made me laugh my butt off when (in the mid-80's) they tried to get a Turbo-charged 4cyl engine to be the equal to the big three's V6 engines in their compact trucks...R.O.L.O.L., it lasted all of one year because in their 4wd
trucks they realized that when you're off-roading you have no time for turbo boost to kick in..you either have the "RIGHT NOW" hp, or you don't and they didn't!!!...as the saying went--"there's no replacement for displacement"!

3. You mentioned quality...with Japanese cars of old? I won't forget that I crossed the path of a lady who had a Honda Civic that she bought brand new in 1983, and she was at a pay phone calling for help while her car was spewing coolant from the radiator (due to over-heating)? The funny thing for me with that was my then wife and I just bought an '82 Chevy Cavalier, that had 33k on the odometer, and my car was working fine (granted that because it was a rental, and we know full well how rental cars are treated), after it rec'd a new head gasket at 33k....this car survived nearly 2yrs of public abuse before it needed that gasket, as opposed to her car being less than 6mths old???

4. As for Chrysler, as long as the engines in them weren't built by Mitsubishi (like the 3.0L V6, which was in the Minivans, and some of the fwd cars), I liked their offerings, and they were of great quality...I loved the 3.3 Chrysler V6 that was in the 1990 Voyager minivan I rented to take my family (with great ease I might add), from Denver to San Diego, and back...I wish we could've kept that van. If Chrysler would've stayed away from putting Mitsubishi engines in some of their cars & vans, they would've been a lot better off.

I hope the "nay sayers", and "domestic bashers"...as you stated (i.e. Consumer Reports, and Car and Driver, plus other publications of their ilk), get ignored by smart American shoppers that realize the truth (just as my eyes/ears, and nose has for years), that the big three has always been (at least) the equal of even the best of the imports...I will say this especially for the General, because I've owned numerous Chevy's, a Cadillac, and a Pontiac, and I was raised on GM products...it was also funny when my sister once had to take a Nissan Pulsar back to the dealer the next day after she bought it, to fix a problem with her brand new car!!?? My (then) brand new '76 Chevy Vega (IV77B6U220942), my '04 Chevy Cavalier, and my current '04 Chevy Colorado (both also bought new), didn't need such visits...I wonder why......

junior barns · 02-19-2009, 11:37 PM

Goinbroke2 said

There is a lot to be proud of only many years of dealerships denying warranty or pissing customers off has left a bad taste in consumers mouths

Not to get off subject and not even looking for a response but (dealerships) pissing off customers! I would have to agree as there are a lot of bad dealers out there for ALL makes. Second

Dealers do not deny warranty claims! Warrany claims are probably the most profitable claims for a service dept but if the manufacturer will not refund the Dealer for a claim why should the Dealer eat the expense

Dealers only sale and repair product! They do not build them!!

Dealers are not the problem here

Just my 2 cents worth

Ed Fernandez · 02-19-2009, 11:41 PM

Since the Jap cars are becoming the topic all I'd like to say is if the Jap cars are so bad then why,when I drove a flatbed for the last 4 years pretty stady and now and then since the 80s have I picked up so little of them for mechanical and electrical reasons.Mostly it's for accidents.I'm not a big fan of them but they do build a good car for the money and alot of them are built HERE in the USA.
Anyone else in towing on here seen the same results as me?
Ed F.

Alan Roehrich · 02-19-2009, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junior barns

Goinbroke2 said

There is a lot to be proud of only many years of dealerships denying warranty or pissing customers off has left a bad taste in consumers mouths

Not to get off subject and not even looking for a response but (dealerships) pissing off customers! I would have to agree as there are a lot of bad dealers out there for ALL makes. Second

Dealers do not deny warranty claims! Warrany claims are probably the most profitable claims for a service dept but if the manufacturer will not refund the Dealer for a claim why should the Dealer eat the expense

Dealers only sale and repair product! They do not build them!!

Dealers are not the problem here

Just my 2 cents worth

When I worked at the dealer, the hours a job paid were cut when it was a warranty job, and the dealer got less per hour and less for the parts.

junior barns · 02-20-2009, 12:17 AM

Alan

Ok customer pay rate is probably a little better than warranty rate How long since you been working for a Dealership Not sure if what you said is still the case? I will check with a local store to see.

Still my point was (is) the Dealers are not the problem with the car company crisis! I here all kinds of talking heads on cnn nbc etc that Unions the manufacturers and dealers are going to have give up something.

Like I stated the Dealers only sale a product and service it. They do not make it.

larry asa · 02-20-2009, 01:28 AM

Just a note; I tried to buy a 2010 camaro tonight. ALL of the pre production run cars are sold. I will have to wait till june.
Larry

SS Engine Guy · 02-20-2009, 01:58 AM

One thing has caused this is "living beyond your means". Multi million dollar bonus/freebies for vice prez of.............fill in the blank. Not just GM but alot of major companies not only in the auto industry. Just like alot of the population ---- instead of using dollars, using paper (or plastic) to pay bills. Borrowing money that dosen't exist, etc. Going to take alot to get this economy back on track starting with the consumer. In the past years advertising/incentives such as buy now no payments for 6 months. Financing anybody. No credit-no problem, bad credit-no problem, bankruptcy-no problem .No down payment. When I was younger and working at a GM dealership and someone wanted to buy a car with no money down, the sales staff would have laughed in your face. The credit industry and big management/big government is where half the problem started. The other half is when American car companies started using foreign components (engines) in some of their products. We came up with the technology to build these engines and gave it, or sold it away only to buy it back at a higher cost. Then we decided to move plants and buy products across the borders because of the cheaper labor and less gov. regs. But instead of passing the savings on to the end user the prices remained high. Then it was decided to build (middle of the line) cars that require excessive labor/time for basic maintenence. The blame goes around in quite a few circles. And I also feel for those that are loosing a job that they have worked hard at and took an interest in. Sure is a shame we have let big money/big government spend us into this mess. The economy can live only so long on "paper".

02-19-2009, 10:34 PM	#12
goinbroke2 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NS CANADA Posts: 899 Likes: 1,683 Liked 403 Times in 158 Posts	Re: GM axes performance division I'm a Ford guy but I support our own first. GM as well as mopar needs support. It's not uaw's fault or any other one thing but a perfect storm that finally done them in. Mismanagement at the top, poor quality, bad service, think I'm talking about domestic's? How about toyota in the 70's! They found out their rusted out underpowered, uncomfortable tin cans can't compete head to head so they figured out what race to win. The quality one! And with that turn around they started building bigger, more comfortable and powerful cars. The same will happen with the domestic's. Toyota proved it can't build a full size work truck, hell honda's is a FWD unibody car with a built in box! But the domestic's have been changing and in the last two years ford and chev both have trucks that will get 21mpg. Ford is now on par or better than japanese quality and has the most 5 star safety rated vehicles on the planet! The new fusion hybrid gets 8mpg better than the camry hybrid. There is a lot to be proud of only many years of dealerships denying warranty or pissing customers off has left a bad taste in consumers mouths. Once the nay sayers and anti domestic bashers realize that the quality is up on domestic's and on par with anything else offered, the tide will slowly change. Times will be tough for GM and mopar. If they fail it could drag ford down too as well as foreign automakers who use the same suppliers. Times are tough but don't give up on the same companies that built tanks/aicraft/etc for this country in it's time of need! GO GM!

02-19-2009, 11:37 PM	#15
junior barns Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 541 Likes: 11 Liked 20 Times in 14 Posts	Re: GM axes performance division Goinbroke2 said There is a lot to be proud of only many years of dealerships denying warranty or pissing customers off has left a bad taste in consumers mouths Not to get off subject and not even looking for a response but (dealerships) pissing off customers! I would have to agree as there are a lot of bad dealers out there for ALL makes. Second Dealers do not deny warranty claims! Warrany claims are probably the most profitable claims for a service dept but if the manufacturer will not refund the Dealer for a claim why should the Dealer eat the expense Dealers only sale and repair product! They do not build them!! Dealers are not the problem here Just my 2 cents worth

02-19-2009, 11:41 PM	#16
Ed Fernandez Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NOO JOISEY nexta NOO YAWK Posts: 5,879 Likes: 38 Liked 100 Times in 45 Posts	Re: GM axes performance division Since the Jap cars are becoming the topic all I'd like to say is if the Jap cars are so bad then why,when I drove a flatbed for the last 4 years pretty stady and now and then since the 80s have I picked up so little of them for mechanical and electrical reasons.Mostly it's for accidents.I'm not a big fan of them but they do build a good car for the money and alot of them are built HERE in the USA. Anyone else in towing on here seen the same results as me? Ed F. __________________ Former NHRA #1945 Former IHRA #1945 T/SA

02-20-2009, 12:17 AM	#18
junior barns Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 541 Likes: 11 Liked 20 Times in 14 Posts	Re: GM axes performance division Alan Ok customer pay rate is probably a little better than warranty rate How long since you been working for a Dealership Not sure if what you said is still the case? I will check with a local store to see. Still my point was (is) the Dealers are not the problem with the car company crisis! I here all kinds of talking heads on cnn nbc etc that Unions the manufacturers and dealers are going to have give up something. Like I stated the Dealers only sale a product and service it. They do not make it.

02-20-2009, 01:28 AM	#19
larry asa Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 23 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: GM axes performance division Just a note; I tried to buy a 2010 camaro tonight. ALL of the pre production run cars are sold. I will have to wait till june. Larry

02-20-2009, 01:58 AM	#20
SS Engine Guy Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: usa Posts: 256 Likes: 1 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: GM axes performance division One thing has caused this is "living beyond your means". Multi million dollar bonus/freebies for vice prez of.............fill in the blank. Not just GM but alot of major companies not only in the auto industry. Just like alot of the population ---- instead of using dollars, using paper (or plastic) to pay bills. Borrowing money that dosen't exist, etc. Going to take alot to get this economy back on track starting with the consumer. In the past years advertising/incentives such as buy now no payments for 6 months. Financing anybody. No credit-no problem, bad credit-no problem, bankruptcy-no problem .No down payment. When I was younger and working at a GM dealership and someone wanted to buy a car with no money down, the sales staff would have laughed in your face. The credit industry and big management/big government is where half the problem started. The other half is when American car companies started using foreign components (engines) in some of their products. We came up with the technology to build these engines and gave it, or sold it away only to buy it back at a higher cost. Then we decided to move plants and buy products across the borders because of the cheaper labor and less gov. regs. But instead of passing the savings on to the end user the prices remained high. Then it was decided to build (middle of the line) cars that require excessive labor/time for basic maintenence. The blame goes around in quite a few circles. And I also feel for those that are loosing a job that they have worked hard at and took an interest in. Sure is a shame we have let big money/big government spend us into this mess. The economy can live only so long on "paper".