Stick vs. Auto index

[Jeff Lee]

So here are the Stock records from NHRA.com. Clearly, there does not seem to be an ET or MPH advantage to the stick cars. Auto's dominate both the ET & MPH records (of the classes contested on both sides).


AA/S 9.75 136.61 -----------------------AA/SA 9.71 134.24
A/S 10.75 0.00 Minimum---------------A/SA 9.78 & A/SA 0.00
B/S 11.00 0.00 Minimum --------------B/SA 10.16 129.82
C/S 10.40 128.11 ----------------------C/SA 10.33 & C/SA 0.00
D/S 10.56 & D/S 125.56 -------------D/SA 10.42 & D/SA 125.83
E/S 11.16 119.28-----------------------E/SA 10.49 123.94
F/S 10.89 119.40 --------------------- F/SA 10.69 122.86
G/S 10.98 121.12 --------------------- G/SA 11.80 0.00 Minimum
H/S 11.53 115.96 ----------------------H/SA 11.95 0.00 Minimum
I/S 11.18 119.32 -----------------------I/SA 11.26 116.40
J/S 11.46 114.82--------------------- -J/SA 11.37 & J/SA 114.07
K/S 11.59 112.62---------------------- K/SA 11.57 113.80
L/S 11.90 109.57 ---------------------L/SA 11.51 113.09
M/S 12.00 109.24---------------------M/SA 11.61 112.98
N/S 12.11 108.75--------------------- N/SA 12.80 0.00 Minimum
O/S 12.25 106.41--------------------- O/SA 12.15 108.71
P/S 12.39 108.58--------------------- P/SA 12.17 109.72
Q/S 13.45 0.00 Minimum------------ Q/SA 12.82 & Q/SA 101.53
R/S 13.75 0.00 Minimum -----------R/SA 13.01 103.14
T/S 14.20 0.00 Minimum-------------T/SA 13.27 98.77
U/S 13.94 96.09----------------------- U/SA 13.77 95.96
V/S 14.45 94.24----------------------- V/SA 14.56 92.21
W/S 15.83 82.27----------------------W/SA 16.45 0.00 Minimum

[JRyan]

Look at the SS/L and LA records. No difference there. I've also watched a couple SS/K cars run low 10.1's in less then desireable air. Robin Brown went in the 9's in good air. Advantage stick cars. Also remember Mike Cates' Comet SS/M car going in the 10's many years ago. Not many autos run in the 10's now unless the air is good. Again a lot of the preceived advantage of the automatic cars is the sheer volume of cars. Especially in SS. There aren't many stick SS cars and several run them just to run them.

Rick Ryan

[Real Racer]

Speaking of records, look at how many are at the minimum.
Using them as a comparison now is moot. They do not reflect the real world performance capabilities.
NHRA has taken all the fun and glory out of setting them so you see far fewer of the go fast guys chasing them these days.

As little as 5 years ago the records page was full and then you had a real comparison of stick vs auto.
Most of the stick records were as far or farther under the index as the autos.

In the 70's, as I recall the stick records in S/SS were a full second faster than the autos.
Jerry Ryan can probably back me up on this.

[Mark Faul]

How many of the records were set at altitude tracks? There are many variables in place. It's not really an apple to apple comparison.

[Jeff Lee]

What I'm hearing is different ways to slice and dice the statistics in order to favor a particular objective. What happened in the 70's, and what track these records were set at is really a moot point. The difference in equipment is vastly different. And the 2 records set by SS cars were both at Tucson, an altitude track. I suppose some would want to discredit those runs thereby leaving ZERO national records in SS set quicker than their auto trans competitors!

The discussion is NHRA indexes and the standard is the NHRA national record. The standard is not what you watched your buddy or competitor do at the track one fine day, it's what is official and accepted by NHRA. And in looking at both the Stock and Superstock records it's pretty clear the sticks do not deserve a penalty with regards to the index.

Stock has (2) stick records of 14 contested on both sides or 15%.
Superstock has (2) stick records of 8 contested on both sides or 25%.

[LB Racing 3179]

How about in Super Stock Modified where the automatic cars get up to a 250lbs. weight break and run on the same index as the stick cars. Every record in Super Stock Modified is held by automatic cars.

[Jared Jordan]

Originally Posted by LB Racing 3179

How about in Super Stock Modified where the automatic cars get up to a 250lbs. weight break and run on the same index as the stick cars. Every record in Super Stock Modified is held by automatic cars.

The quickest SS/AM car in the country (Scott Gove) runs a stick.

A good comparison is the SS/AH cars of the Westcotts. At a recent test session Jr. went 8.50 @ 155 with the auto and Sr. went 8.51 @ 158 with the stick. Same track, same day, same air. I know that the 4-speed is 40 lbs lighter but it also doesn't use the radial.

[JRyan]

Jeff,
The records are not the standard in all cases. Look at Nitro Joes stats over the last year. There are a few runs that are faster then current records. The SS/K record is a pefect example. The record is about .40 slower then it could be. Records mean nothing to NHRA so most don't worry about setting them. In several classes the fastest run of the year is within a .10 but what do you do about the classes that are .2-.4 faster.
Nobody has answered the question what do you do with the couple classes where the stick is at an incredible advantage. I run both stick and automatics so I don't think I have an agenda one way or the other. Our stick car doesn't have really any of the newest tricks yet it's capable of running with the majority of the automatic cars in the same class.
Last year there were more SS/JA cars then there were stick cars in all of the traditional SS classes. Yet between SS and GT classes nine times the stick car had a faster best actual ET. Now these were all done in different weather conditions and altitudes but that gives you a more broad persceptive then looking at the record page. It is feasable currently in several classes but you can't make the assumption that sticks and autos run the same in A/S so let's combine all of them.
Plus tell me this if they were to combine classes what do you do with cars that either didn't come as a stick or those that didn't come as an auto? Personally I'd love to make my Olds a stick car.

Rick Ryan

[SS Engine Guy]

I think if you want to run a stick (which I think is cool) then run a stick or if you think that an auto is more suited to you then run an auto. Enough with the "rule change of the week". If you want to combine them then let the stick have the magnetic release and the auto the full lock up converter. And let both SPEND MORE MONEY.

[Jeff Lee]

Regarding Stock,
First off, I never said "combine classes".
Second, I never suggested a rule change, I suggested parity on the indexes. That's not a rule change.
I really don't know how to make it any easier to understand.

JR brought up SS/JA. Coincedentely I was talking to my SS/J buddy Rob Youngblood tonight. He recently raced and ran the same ET as Don Little in SS/JA. Don Little qualified #1, Youngblood qualified #9. Another racer commented to Youngblood "how can you run the same time and be 8 positions apart?" Youngblood said "because there is a two tenths difference on the index!"
I think that example pretty much sums it up. Two cars both on a 11# weight break and one gets a two tenths advantage by running an automatic trans. Since SS Engine Guy brought up money, tell us how much money Youngblood would have to spend to find the extra 40 HP needed to obtain that #1 qualifying position? I'll betcha you would like that customer!

And yes, I would be all for Superstock (not Stock) allowing a magnetic clutch release to compete against the trans-brakes. The performance of the stick car would not change ANY so there would be no need for allowing lock-up converters. While not offering a performance advantage, the stick cars with a clutch release would be more deadly on the line. And I guess that would frighten those with trans-brakes that have unlimited adjustments quite similar in application to a delay box. And I suppose that's where the "leave the rules alone" mantra starts kicking in!

JR,
I hate to tell you but every run in Nitro Joe's is not neccessarily a legal run down the track. A record is set, authenticated and published by NHRA. And if a racer feels the need to build a vehicle which will run under a record he should be more than happy to prove the validity of his runs.