Crate Engines in NHRA?

[Todd Boyer]

I wasn't trying to piss anyone off with the original post, I just got to wondering if it had ever been considered.

I heard a few years back that NHRA was considering it.

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Alan and Rory, I do not disagree with most of everything you said. However, throwing another engine spec into the mix and another class formula is certainly not going to deteriorate the state of the class. And Alan, the point is not that the replacement parts are necessaily better, it's that the parts are not "stock" like Rory's production stuff is. If you spec a small block Gen I 350 Chevrolet with flat top pistons, a .450/.460 camshaft, 062 or 182 Vortec heads and allow a 750 Holley with an unmodified aftermarket manifold, then tag a relatively correct power number to it, what is the difference for tech, for classification or for the competition event?

Dwight, there won't be another class formula, that's the point. If there WERE going to be another class formula, they'd have created it when they allowed the Ford crate motors in new Cobra Jet kit cars that were never sold as a running vehicle at all.

Ford has never shipped a new 428 Windsor in a running car. And yet it isn't in a crate motor class, with its own formula. It's in with real production combinations, regardless of whether or not they've had superseded parts approved, and the production combinations are probably pretty clore to being factored correctly.

The factors won't be correct either, and we all know it. NHRA is evidently unwilling to correctly factor new combinations as submitted, or even get close, so we need to add a bunch of crate motors that they won't factor correctly, and make everything better? Surely you do not believe that will be what happens. And do you REALLY believe that if NHRA were to allow crate motors, we'd see a real increase in the car count?

[Dwight Southerland]

Alan -
But NHRA did create another formula with the DP and Ford cars. It's just that it is a formula that specifically applies to those combinations. You basically said it yourself that they take paper engines (crate motors) and put them in non-production bodies to make the cars that are now in competition.

My statements and comments are not arguing that NHRA ought to start "crate motor" classes, just that such classes and the cars that are defined by them are totally within the same functional rules and concepts of the whole of Stock Eliminator as it is defined now. It's kind of like when Farmer told me years ago that "stock" is what is in the class guides and what is "legal" is what passes tech. I just don't see the necessity of the vehement remarks that come out from the NHRA guys when IHRA crate motor cars are discussed. NHRA Stock Eliminator is in one perspective just a "formula" category that is only a vague semblance to mostly production automobiles in America.

To address your questions: Will NHRA likely add crate motor classes? Probably not, unless they get financially desperate and think that by tempting IHRA racers they can help the bottom line. If they decided to add crate motor classes, would the car count increase? Probably not that either, unless that becomes an effective way for racers of old car combinations to stay away from the new cars that are being destined to overtake the existing classes.

You comments about the lack of equity in factoring answers itself. That's a moot point as far as I am concerned. We are seeing the most blatent screwing and inconsideration of the Stock Eliminator competitors imaginable. What is going on is the frog in the pot waiting for the water to boil or the Jews being moved to the ghettos in Krakow. The AHFS is designed to not correct the power factors, only to give the semblance that it will. It doesn't even keep up with old, known combinations, much less the new ones that are given such preferential status. The intent is to kill off the old cars gradually, and it is a marketing decision. These guys are looking ten years out and trying to keep their product attractive to a changing audience, and the audience is not the competitors.

Another factor that I hate is that the new cars are so expensive. When the economic statistics of the country support the fact that no more than 2.6% of the population can even afford to build and race a $100,000 race car, Stock Eliminator is beginning to look like polo - eclectic and only for the rich. The fly in the ointment is the Billy Nees and Bob Shaw racers, but how many new racers are being educated into that perspective and mentality? If you can't get old racers to really honor them, so what chance to pass on the wisdom? Even if there were a "move" to more practical and not-ego-driven race car building, NHRA would strategize a way to make them uncompetitive. They have a product to sell, not races to run, and they know that mindless excitement, lust, greed and ego sells races, not true competition.

Sorry for the rant, guys.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

The fly in the ointment is the Billy Nees and Bob Shaw racers, but how many new racers are being educated into that perspective and mentality?

Sorry for the rant, guys.

Well Dwight, it's not for lack of trying on my end! It seem to me that you and Alan (and others) are always trying to help Racers also.
The biggest problem I have trying to get young people to try Stock and SS is the purse structure. I personally believe the ridiculous purses we are running for is the BIGGEST issue that we face (moreso than the AHFS, new cars, etc.).
How can I convince someone who can go to their local track with a Bracket car that they should try building a "specialty" car, spending 3,4,5 days at some far away track where they'll pay a ridiculous entry fee to be treated like crap and in those 3,4,5 days run one race with a purse that's lower then they are used to running for locally? Exposure? Fame?
We'll get no new blood (other than SLRCs) until NHRA makes it worthwhile for them to try it. We're dead, we just haven't fallen down yet.

[Hagen Gary]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

Well Dwight, it's not for lack of trying on my end! It seem to me that you and Alan (and others) are always trying to help Racers also.
The biggest problem I have trying to get young people to try Stock and SS is the purse structure. I personally believe the ridiculous purses we are running for is the BIGGEST issue that we face (moreso than the AHFS, new cars, etc.).
How can I convince someone who can go to their local track with a Bracket car that they should try building a "specialty" car, spending 3,4,5 days at some far away track where they'll pay a ridiculous entry fee to be treated like crap and in those 3,4,5 days run one race with a purse that's lower then they are used to running for locally? Exposure? Fame?
We'll get no new blood (other than SLRCs) until NHRA makes it worthwhile for them to try it. We're dead, we just haven't fallen down yet.

Well said. Everybody is worried about how the new cars and thier factors are slaping traditional stockers in the face, and they don't see that NHRA has been straight kicking us in the balls for years with the purse structure. If I wasn't born into this, No way in hell would I be doing it.

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by Hagen Gary

Well said. Everybody is worried about how the new cars and thier factors are slaping traditional stockers in the face, and they don't see that NHRA has been straight kicking us in the balls for years with the purse structure. If I wasn't born into this, No way in hell would I be doing it.

I wasn't born into it, but then I'm not just real bright.

[Greg Hill]

At least IHRA rates the crate motors fairly and puts them in their own class.

[Hagen Gary]

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

I wasn't born into it, but then I'm not just real bright.

From what I gather, the risk vs reward was worth it years ago when you were doing it and my father started. How many new people have shown up out of nowhere in the last 10 years? I'm willing to bet its less than 1/10th of the people who left the sport.

[Dwight Southerland]

Billy -
I wholeheartedly agree with what you bring up as another major issue. In fact, I could easily argue that it is THE issue that is molding the future of Stock/SS racing. It is encouraging that regional associations are making progress in making other options for the existing racer population. IHRA is doing some good stuff, too. I do not beleive that the answer is not going to come from NHRA, however. What may be happening is the planets aligning for a good chance for a national level sportsman association/organization/racing venue. It might possibly be a coalition of several regional associations with some of the characteristics that existed for the separate divisions when NHRA first formed - identity, inter-regional competition, few but significant national races. Such an arrangement is easier to fund and likely easier to promote. What is key is a national level governing body for the assurance of consistent competition (national rules management and enforcement agency). When you think about it, NHRA could provide that sanctioning role and rules management, but not be the race company. That would look more like what SEMA does for equipment sanctioning.

Also, it seems that part of an answer lies in getting some program going that could be implemented at the local or semi-local level that would be foundational for supporting broader geographic competition. March Madness would not be as big a deal without the SEC, the Big Ten, etc. and their contests.

Thinking out loud.

[Randall Klein]

Interesting concept about regional S/SS series coming together as "conferences" in 3-5 "national races" with a year-end October Madness....the mistrust of a national group (SRA etc) would be mitigated by the local trust and vetting....couldn't afford an annualized tech crew, but for a handful of national get-togethers I could see paying a recognized tech overseer (Wesley, Travis) to "keep-'em-honest"

A payout could be patterned after the "buy-in" poker series, and/or from dollars saved from NHRA fees

The BIG problem as I see it, is access to the super tracks we have all come to enjoy which I'm afraid we would be locked out of

just dreaming