Ford First "Stocker" Into The Eights

[Run to Rund]

Back in the 1960s, the new cars dominated some classes, like C/S by 442s and GTOs, etc. Most people couldn't run such expensive cars and weren't competitive with older combinations in the upper classes. There was some room to build power beyond factory ratings with the new cars, but NHRA had seen the older stuff long enough to have a handle on their real HP vs. factory ratings.

The biggest issue today, imo, is that superchargers and turbochargers can add some power or a lot of power, depending on many other things. It is very hard to rate an engine that has so much variability. Then, when altitude comes in, the blown engines lose a lot less HP than normallly aspirated engines, so altitude factors are another big problem when trying to be "fair" to both normally aspirated and blown engines.

I have looked under the hoods of the new stuff and I sure wouldn't want to have to work on them, compared to the big engine ccompartments and simple plumbing of the 1960s, lol.

[Myron Piatek]

Originally Posted by Jack Matyas

Ralph - Thats the beauty of the whole thing - many fans ( and racers ) love the old school cars and many can't wait to see the new ones ........having them face of against each other is the best thing I know of to get people to watch and take notice .

I never thought of "Shooting fish in a barrel." as a popular spectator sport.

The concept of old vs new is great, but it's the way they are going about it. Until the AHFS does it's job after some length of time, the new cars have an overwhelming advantage even without the same amount of R&D that has gone into the old cars for decades. While these new cars get factored up through several classes, some of the old cars within those classes get sidelined from being outqualified in the limited fields or risk being outrun heads-up if they do qualify. Sure, there will usually be someone faster that can outrun or outdrive your car. But at least it was "apples-to-apples" before. Forcing people out because they can't afford a new car isn't right.

Can't really blame racers for taking advantage of the situation. Racers are always looking for an advantage. But some flaunt this pre-existing advantage while others go about racing without rocking the boat any more than necessary.

Just offering the perspective of someone who'll never have a "new" car or a top qualifying "regular" Stocker. I love the sport and the concept of class racing. I just hate to see it becaome an exclusive club. The roots of drag racing included the little guy, with enough "blood, sweat and tears", to be competitive with the big dogs.

[Mike Carr]

Originally Posted by Jack Matyas

Bruce - OK , since you want to stir the pot some I'll jump in with my own spoon .In the history of Stock / Superstock racing never has there been so much "buzz" going on than now - everyone has noticed and is talking about whats going on - these cars have put new life back into our sport which had become very stale .Having the " Big Three " involved and building cars has been nothing but positive from all sides ......well , maybe all but yours .On the negitive side is the horsepower factors which have taken too long to stablize but the other cars are catching back up - did you notice the three LS1 cars in the top ten this weekend in Charlotte ? Were the " new " cars laying down - I don't think so .And then there's Steve Szupkas' little giant killer I/SA 305 car going 11.25 in the # 5 spot - certainly not a million dollar car - they just work hard and keep trying .My point is that the AHFS is working .

As for Don Fizells' historic 8 second run - kudos to Don and his team - much as people think so these cars are not " plug and play " as I'm sure it took plenty of hard work ( and probably a wheelbarrow of cash ) .

And finally about Bobby DeArmonds 9 second pass - no one can take a moment away from him - its his forever .The first ten second , 9 second and now 8 second run came to pass for only one reason and its time everyone got used to it ---- Rule Changes .

Let the hate mail begin but please no Kryptonite ....................

I guess I'll take a stab at this one....no hate mail, just respectful opinions/statements.

Jack, you are correct. There HAS been a buzz surrounding Class Racing that is almost never seen/heard, other than for the Hemi Shootouts. That said, like Bruce asked, "How has this helped the majority of S/SS racers?". And, IMO, it hasn't.

-Has it brought in a large group of new racers to the class? No. Most (most) of the people racing the new CJ and DP cars were already racing in S/SS. David Barton, Bo Kenney, Irvin Johns, Eric Merryfield, to name just a few. Sure, we've had a few people either new, or returning after long layoffs (Don Fezell, Charlie Fitzsimmons, to name two), but in the grand scheme of things, it hasn't done much to increase car counts in S/SS. And, when you factor in the fact that many current Stock racers have scaled back, or quit, racing, the gain is minimal, to no gain at all. And, to further discuss the point of the buzz, I don't see that the hype/media exposure has brought in any new sponsors or anything to Class Racing (has anyone here gained a sponsor because "They [the sponsor] want to get in on this class racing deal, it looks exciting"?) No real huge benefit to the MAJORITY of S/SS racers. A boost to the ego's of a few, and general disdain, headaches and disapointment to many.

-The horsepower factors are 'catching up'. Yes...to a point. Not nearly fast enough for most of us. Case in point--the 5.7 liter DragPak. Started out at the factory 305 rating. The first race it hit the track, June 2010, two people (Merryfield and Roy Johnson) both went more than -1.20 (more than -1.50 under the old Index) under in F/SA, and hit it. At Bristol, a slow, hot, altitude track in more than 3,500' corrected altitude

1 1883 F/SA Eric Merryfield, Andover MA, '09 Challenger10.586 11.85 -1.264
2 2216 F/SA Roy Johnson, Greenville TN, '09 Challenger 10.630 11.85 -1.220

This combination received a hit for that race. Fast forward just over a year later, late June 2011. By then, the 5.7 had been hit up to 404 (a ninety-nine HP increase in about 54 weeks). As a side note to the above F/SA runs, to this day, there aren't many, if ANY, F/SA that can run a 10.6 in even the best Atco air.

1 5035 A/SA Keith Lynch, Greenville OH, '10 Challenger 9.929 11.00 -1.071

I think this helps prove the point. That, while the AHFS may indeed be working to a point, it isn't near enough, or fast enough. With the new-for-2011 rule that, 'the faster you go, the more HP you get', it may help over time. BUT, if NHRA would have had the foresight, people in charge who were smart enough and cared enough, this all could have been solved before it started. Case in point, a comparison between the late 1970's 360 Mopar engine in a Volare/Aspen, and a modern Mopar 360 in a DragPak:

The 5.9 360 cid Mopar engine in the late 1970's Aspen/Volare's is rated 289, by NHRA. A fast one of these will run 11.1's to 11.20's in H/SA (Jim Wahl in Florida has one). Now, compare Jeff Tueton's 2009 5.9 360 in a DragPak, with every advantage you could want over the old cars/engines. It has a 1000 cfm throttle body, better, plastic intake, better flowing heads, .490" roller cam, and has run 10.52 in G/SA, while running at H weight , and was rated at the time at 275!!!. NHRA should have looked at the specs and realized that a FAR superior engine should NOT be rated FOURTEEN HP LESS!!! And oh yeah, Jeff's DP at the time got to weigh one hundred and fifty four (154) pounds LESS than Jim's Aspen. Can you say "bring a tank to a water pistol fight"?

NHRA, in my opinion, should have looked at the specs and started the new cars at a fairer rating. Using the above info, instead of 275, they could have started the modern 360 at, say, 300, 310, 325, whatever. THAT, in itself, would have been a big deal...trying to level the playing field from the get-go. Again, just my humble, respectful opinion. Yes, the older cars are catching up, slowly. Assuming no new CJ/DP/Copo combos are built after 2012, and we have just the current available engines, they might catch up almost, almost, totally, in a few years.

-Fezell's run. Yes, it's fast. Yes, it's historic. And, while many do not place this as large of an accomplishment as Bobby D and Jim Waldo's feats, it definately has it's place in history.

[Mike Carr]

NHRA actually have avoided this whole transgression with one or two simple lines in the Rulebook:

"If you could not buy the car, as is, and license it, register it, insure it, and drive it home, it is not a Stocker, it is S/S only".

Like the Race Hemi's, AMX, Thunderbolts, etc.

[Jim Wahl]

Originally Posted by Mike Carr

NHRA actually have avoided this whole transgression with one or two simple lines in the Rulebook:

"If you could not buy the car, as is, and license it, register it, insure it, and drive it home, it is not a Stocker, it is S/S only".

Like the Race Hemi's, AMX, Thunderbolts, etc.

Exactly! Jim

.

[Pvt Parts]

Originally Posted by Mike Carr

NHRA actually have avoided this whole transgression with one or two simple lines in the Rulebook:

"If you could not buy the car, as is, and license it, register it, insure it, and drive it home, it is not a Stocker, it is S/S only".

Like the Race Hemi's, AMX, Thunderbolts, etc.

I tend to agree as well, but I can appreciate both sides. The addition of these cars is not much different that when NHRA combined SS and Modified. However, all of the modified cars have their own classes.... as it should be in Stock.

In support of that, look at comp. Turbo charged cars have their own classes as do the supercharged cars.

All of the stockers could run in the eliminator against each other fairly but the the new "order from a menu" cars should not be combined in the same classes with "real" OEM stockers. There is no factor or equation that will ever make them the same.

[abongi]

Originally Posted by Bruce Noland

Anthony,

I applaud your success in life. We fully understand the amount of work it takes to make a car fast and enjoyable.

Let's take a quick look at one of your team cars that you shipped south this winter. It picked up 22 horsepower in just two races and it still has a ton left. I am pleased to see that you allow your drivers to run these cars as they please. But you can plug in a new engine combination at any time and continue to run over top of the traditional Stockers for years to come. Yes, we know and enjoy hard work, however, these new cars are not breaking anybody's back to go fast.

Dave,
Citing prior transgressions by nhra does not make this one right.

Jack,
What did you say? Smoke and ah shucks is not going to make this problem go away.

Finally, the ahfs is a joke and all the nhra types hide behind it to say "hey look these cars are picking up Horsepower." But like the car I noted above, the ahfs is a bandaid over a gapping performance wound. This car is making twice the amount of it's nhra rated Horsepower. Anthony can confirm the real horsepower number for this car if he wishes to be honest with the racers.

Bruce, I just want to point out that the same motor you are talking about was originally in my 2008 stocker in 2009 and I was not making enough HP to be competitve with anything. It took us 2 years before we were making enough HP with that motor to put it back in a race car and we stood on it in Gainesville and Belle Rose. I don't disagree that the new cars run fast, but it doesn't just happen by itself.

If you look at the supercharged motor in my 2008 stocker, we were running 9.90's and 10.0's when it came out, and that was everything it had. We have worked real hard at figuring out what makes these motors tick and its been a big effort in getting to the low 9's. Getting there has been far more work than simply dropping a motor in a car.

The advantage that the new cars have is not so much that the motors are so fast out of the box. The advantage is that since the combinations are relatively new, incremental gains can be large as development is done. I have broken and blown up more motors than I would care to admit, but we have learned something each time we have done it.

As far as the AHFS is concerned, it may not be working as fast as you would like, but in my estimation, its working quite well.

[boster]

Congrats to Don Fezzel and team he did real good . It's not easy to do what he did or what Anthony's been doing . I had enough motor this week to do the same thing in stock but we could not get the car to hook up . All of the D1 guys are working real hard to get the cars down the track . Big Daddy did it with a stick to boot , Don is the man. Old car or new this requires a lot of time , money and effort on the teams part

[Jeff Teuton]

Just for conversation, just how far back should the rules be pushed? 1960, 65,70, camshafts (we all know that story), anybody got any Atlas Bucrons left, Chev trans with chev insides, stock wheels, the carb that came with no mods, mufflers & complete exhaust, no weight moved ( famous gas tanks etc), just how far back? What state would you (Bruce) be willing to run that beautiful corvette? I mean if we gonna regulate, then let's regulate all the stuff. And while we are at it, lets disallow all the specialty parts allowed by the regulators, (later carbs, heads, etc). It don't matter if they ain't any, and lets face it how can there not be plenty chevy stuff left. They made milliions unlike Ford and Mopar who at the time were just kept in business by GM to keep the regulators off of GM. Drive the car to the race? Why not. Litereally off the showroom from 62 up? Might be fun.

[novassdude]

I think if they were doing this with showroom available cars there would be a whole lot less complaining going on. Look under the hood of a normal show room Challenger and a PD challenger you would be lucky to even see that the motors were even related.