Towing issues / updates

[Joe Schaechter]

Originally Posted by Jeff Teuton

Joe Lisa, that trooper is absolutely wrong based on DOT reg 390 (f)(3) which specifically allows boats, horse trailer, race cars as exempt from DOT even if money is involved. I will try to post that section. It's small, but it is part of the regs. Now if your stuff is titled in a company name, you are DOT. All my stuff is in my personal name. Excuse me; it is 390.3(f)(3) and I have it in my hand. Someone tell me how to get from a scanner to this channel and I will post it.

About halfway down on this page is the specific guidance for our racing activities: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...0.3&guidence=Y

Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the ‘‘occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise’’ apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.

[Greg Gay]

Jeff,

I am in agreement with you that we SHOULD be exempt, but I think they will argue that the prize money makes it commercial. That seems to be the opinion of Massachusetts, anyway. Where do they draw the line between my operation and John Force's? I do not know, but we are towing hundreds of miles, spending thousands of dollars to try to have fun with our cars legally. When they start sitting out in front of the casinos, and applying these rules, then I'll consider my racecar a commercial enterprise.

Greg

[joe176]

This was sent to Jeff Tripp last year after he had been pulled over numerous times for towing a race car


US DOT REQUIREMENTS
buz.scfiultz@dot.gov
Friday, ~ebrua* 17, 2012 11:43 am -
Dear Mr.Tripp:
Thank you for telephoning the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) at the U.S. Department of
Transportation for information.
1. The regulation we discussed (49 CFR 390.3(f)(3)) provides an exemption from the Federal Motor Carrier Safety
Regulations for: "the occasional trensportafion of personal property by individuals not for compensation
nor in furtherance of a commercial enterprise. "
This is the link for this language: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...ministmtiml~~r
ffmcsm letext .aspx?reg=390.3&keyword=occasional
The regulatory guidance we discussed is in the guidance or interpretations of subsection 390.5, as follows;
Question 2 1: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal
property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise " apply to
persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows
or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?
Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (7) The underlying activities
are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as onrdinary income for tax purposes, and (b)
the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where
relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to
determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.

[Dan Fahey]

Originally Posted by Randall Klein

For the life of me I cannot understand why our National Organization with their bevy of legal staffers on the board will not pitch in and lobby or address this situation. They could work with state tourism boards, and legislatures to exempt NHRA members from excess trooper rules interpretations

Now that would be a member benefit, and they can keep the patch and pin

They could print out a pamphlet (like fan guide) with state regs that we all could carry with us and possibly a help line one could call when harrassed

ya think?

by the way, we were stopped west of Des Moines a couple of years ago for trailer search, interrogation, etc.....back home researched with State Patrol and yes we could demand a warrant, but best to be polite, co-operate and move on was advice

This is something xHRA and other racing bodies should be doing !

D

[Jeff Teuton]

According to the DOT official who was teaching the siminar years back where we asked if there was such an animal as 390, he said yes. It does not matter how much, just that if you get a 1099, you claim it personally. I had a big episode two years ago with North Carolina to the point we were sending witness lists and all to have a formal hearing. I wrote the Gov. in NC and my friend I was helping got a call next week and NC agreed to return the whole fine less $22.00 for being 2000 lbs. over on one axle. Also remember DOT, CDL, and Weights and Measures are different animals. Also most motor homes do not have any weight limit associated with it. But you can't be Jeff's Great Racing Team on the registration or something like that. You want to create a gray area and just go on about your business. If stopped and the most likely question is "Are you doing this for Money?", the answer is NO. If the second question is "Is prize money involved in this?", your answer is yes if you win or place, but tht is allowed under DOT Regulation 390.3(f)(3). You are not required to have a tax return in your possession. By very definition you could have a tractor trailer that is yours personally and you are just having fun, might get by. Seems most states from what I have seen isolate on the Fifth Wheel hitch such as a toter as opposed to a motor home. Florida is specific about it in motorsports truck regulations. Or maybe it was North Carolina. In that case their deal was a fifth wheel, its a Commercial Motor Vehicle. Kinda hard to argue. Create the gray area. If you have a pickup truck and race trailer, the easy and cheap way is have the license capacity reflect the GVWR of the truck and trailer. Most dualies are about 11k and a two axle trailer is usually 10k or 12k, less than the 26K necessary for CDL.

[cicero819]

Originally Posted by J.LISA

I was pulled over in ny on 84 on my way to epping national
haulmark toter and 30ft stacker.Im lucky to get a misrible female trooper
she asked whats in the trailer me being honest says race cars,next thing
follow me to the next exit.she does a full inspect on truck &trailer including
inside trailer.long story short,since they were racecars,entry fees are being
paid and winnings being paid it becomes a federal issue therefore a cdl is
required.also a log book,an medical card.so i waited 4hrs for a friend with a cdl
to come an drive my rig away.so i suggest if ya get pulled over show car in the trailer

Joe, good thing she stayed because she could have had you towed at your expense. I can't believe she wasted 4hrs of her shift waiting there. You need to get her and whoever she answers to, and explain to them that they're wrong(49 CFR 390.3(F)(3) provides an exemption from the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulation. All over Canada and the U.S. States and City are trying new ways to fill their depleted coffers and how better way than taking from the have's and giving to the have's not. Believe me there is still some good people at these DMV you just have to dig and dig until you find one that will not BS their way out of finding the right answer. Carry that law explanation with you in your vehicle and be knowledgeable enough to stand your ground.Claude Ruel

[voltdr]

I was told by the DOT TX office in Dallas, that if you connect a trailer with a GVW over 10001#, you need a CDL. The newer Duallies are rated at 14000#. My stuff weighs just over 21000#. One DPS officer said I don't need a CDL because of weight. DOT says because my trailer is rated at 12000# I do, regardless if I race for money or NOT. I doesn't matter if it's a MH or not.
Even if you are correct you still may be stuck somewhere waiting on someone with the proper CDL to move your stuff.
Dan Foley

[Jeff Teuton]

I am reasonably sure CDL does not start until 26000 lbs. Every truck manufacturers makes a special truck that the GVW is 25,900 or 25,999. GVW is determined by the axle capacities and frame. That is from many audits by the IRS and from the head of taxation for Navistar International. It is up to the manufacturer to establish this rating. I will check with someone smarter than me and get back to this string. We have 1600 leased medium and heavy trucks, and stay informed on this stuff. The IRS focuses on the 'fifth wheel' as an issue on FET which is 12% of the selling price. Motor Homes are not normally subject to this. FET starts @ 33,000 GVW or a Tractor Package. Now does a toter that is in a company name and have a fifth wheel qualify. Just another little gray area. DOT starts @ 10000 lbs is correct, but on smaller stuff normally enough tag to cover what you have is enough. The CDL he is referring to is because of the trailer. This stuff becomes Greek or Russian if you look at it long enough, and I can assure you the officers are not notebook. They just get taught the highlings like "are you getting paid" just to issue tickets. Those guys should be enforcing CMV's as the law was not designed for the amatures like us except by some gooneybird trooper that don't like race cars (boats, horses, etc). Fortunately most troopers are enforcing the laws on CMV's like they should, but that occasional one that first don't know the law, 2 don't like people places or things, and third I just don't know now. More later.

[63corvette]

Originally Posted by voltdr

I was told by the DOT TX office in Dallas, that if you connect a trailer with a GVW over 10001#, you need a CDL. The newer Duallies are rated at 14000#. My stuff weighs just over 21000#. One DPS officer said I don't need a CDL because of weight. DOT says because my trailer is rated at 12000# I do, regardless if I race for money or NOT. I doesn't matter if it's a MH or not.
Even if you are correct you still may be stuck somewhere waiting on someone with the proper CDL to move your stuff.
Dan Foley

Dan, I live in TX also and all you need is a Class A not a CDL.
CDL is for commercial and the Class A is a Non-Commercial version for recreational use for the trailer over the 10,000 lbs. Class A covers it all. You take the same written test as the CDL and a drivers tests also just like the CDL just no physical and no log books required.
Been there done that.
Rick Cates
Canyon, TX

[V M Kauffman]

The thing you all keep forgetting is that this section of the Fed register that is thrown around is Federal standards there are two different standards that are in law Federal and State laws. The real problems in all this is that the states are enforcing some of the Federal laws. The deal about the 10,000 lb is any Combined combination of truck and trailer that is over 10,001 lb and used commercially is subject the whole CDL thing it is in the Fed resister that Joe is quoting

Originally Posted by Jeff Teuton

I am reasonably sure CDL does not start until 26000 lbs. Every truck manufacturers makes a special truck that the GVW is 25,900 or 25,999. GVW is determined by the axle capacities and frame. That is from many audits by the IRS and from the head of taxation for Navistar International. It is up to the manufacturer to establish this rating. I will check with someone smarter than me and get back to this string. We have 1600 leased medium and heavy trucks, and stay informed on this stuff. The IRS focuses on the 'fifth wheel' as an issue on FET which is 12% of the selling price. Motor Homes are not normally subject to this. FET starts @ 33,000 GVW or a Tractor Package. Now does a toter that is in a company name and have a fifth wheel qualify. Just another little gray area. DOT starts @ 10000 lbs is correct, but on smaller stuff normally enough tag to cover what you have is enough. The CDL he is referring to is because of the trailer. This stuff becomes Greek or Russian if you look at it long enough, and I can assure you the officers are not notebook. They just get taught the highlings like "are you getting paid" just to issue tickets. Those guys should be enforcing CMV's as the law was not designed for the amatures like us except by some gooneybird trooper that don't like race cars (boats, horses, etc). Fortunately most troopers are enforcing the laws on CMV's like they should, but that occasional one that first don't know the law, 2 don't like people places or things, and third I just don't know now. More later.