HP Rating....F Body vs FWD Conversion Cars

[Stewart Way]

Terry
I'm putting the 5.7 is a 68 Cuda AH clone. Won't be fast fast cause the first motor won't be 100% SS. Likely short in the cam/rocker area. It goes to the media blaster next week to get touched up where my sweaty body was all over it building it, and then primed. I decided to take the FAST EFI 101 school in Orlando the day before PRI so maybe an old dog won't be soooo lost of the EFI. Also running a stick before I get to old to work on it. SSGT/D. Kevin Helms has been helping/driving the Barnett Performance SSAH stick car and he made it look so easy I decided to join in the 4 speed wars. Maybe some time next year.

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Stewart Way

Terry
I'm putting the 5.7 is a 68 Cuda AH clone. Won't be fast fast cause the first motor won't be 100% SS. Likely short in the cam/rocker area. It goes to the media blaster next week to get touched up where my sweaty body was all over it building it, and then primed. I decided to take the FAST EFI 101 school in Orlando the day before PRI so maybe an old dog won't be soooo lost of the EFI. Also running a stick before I get to old to work on it. SSGT/D. Kevin Helms has been helping/driving the Barnett Performance SSAH stick car and he made it look so easy I decided to join in the 4 speed wars. Maybe some time next year.

Sounds like a cool ride. Good luck.

[Bryan Worner]

But the data is out there that, especially with my LT1 combo, all of the horsepower increases (speaking for LT1 only) in the last 4 or 5 years, are from a Cavalier or Cobalt!! So how is it fair, with the "platform" rule in the AHFS, that it is not enforced the way it is written? That is my ONLY issue with any of this crap!

If I had the funds, I would have one of these cars!!!

[Greg Hill]

Originally Posted by joe176

Alot of conversation takes place about how the F body camaro / firebird platform should be separate on the hp rating because it's at a performance disadvantage vs the FWD Cobalts/Cavaliers. I have alot of data that proves this right but not to the extreme that most racers I hear talking about say it is.
My 1985 Camaro ran well and I had my heart and soul into that car....it was a top qualifier/ record setting car. It had the same efi engine combination in it from the start of the 2006 season until I decided to switch to a cavalier at the Dutch Classic 2009. I have now run the cavalier for one full season and pretty much can say it is sorted out. The reason I wanted to make the change was more technology than love of the car per say. The new car has all the latest innovations to make it easier to work on. Dash comes out...one piece headers.....coil over front springs/struts...equal length four link.....so on and so forth.

So if you took a complete drivetrain out of a camaro and installed everything and I mean everything in a FWD conversion car.....what would it be worth ??

I know because I did it......I took the engine (efi intake to charlie's oil pan), injectors, trans,converter, complete msd ignition including the coil, big stuff computer, complete ring/pinion/center section, same M/T radials, shifter w/air kit, duplicated the Aeromotive fuel system, and the same 16 volt batteries. Out of the box at a track rental first time out at maple grove/dutch classic 09 the car in GT/FA went 9.81@ 133 mph four times in a row at race weight. .....which will be my term for fast runs with radial.

This is some of the comparable data that I have come up with in 5 years of running this particular combination.

Camaro----------------Camaro---------------Cavalier-----------------Cavalier
GT/HA-------------------GT/HA-----------------GT/FA-------------------GT/FA
Cecil 8/08-------------Atco 10/08---------Lebanon 7/10----------Etown 9/10

1.361---------------------1.336------------------1.270---------------------1.274
4.055---------------------4.006------------------3.901---------------------3.904
6.373---------------------6.294------------------6.148---------------------6.151
105.49........................106.81.............. ......109.86........................108.84
8.384..........................8.286.............. .........8.104..........................8.106
10.091........................9.988............... ........9.769..........................9.773
131.81........................132.27.............. ......134.79........................134.00

77.6 degrees.............74.9.......................... 69.8.............................68.8
51.4 %........................29.0 %.....................52.2%....................... ...51.1 %
29.99..........................30.07.............. ..........29.50...........................29.79
1573'..........................1291'.............. ..........1534'............................1112'
wind 15 degrees......wind 291...................wind 90........................wind 90
6-8 mph......................0-3 mph....................3-6 mph.......................10-11 mph
race weight................race weight..............race weight...................race weight
.................................................. ................ ..-275 lbs lighter.............-275 lbs. lighter

-1.259 old index........-1.362 old index.......-1.331 old index..........-1.327 old index

these are just a small sample of what I have found....these runs with the cavalier are after adjusting the converter, fuel map, shift points, leave rpm and rear gear.This car weighs 275 lbs lighter than the camaro at race weight....I have been comparing data for the latter half of this season for my own curiosity and I feel that the advantage is only 3-5 hundreths at the most....not a tenth to two tenths which is what I've heard in the past.

Joe in 2008 when I was a member of the SRAC I had a couple of D3 racers ask me to help get the rule changed to allow separate factoring for the rear wheel drive cars in SS GT compared to the fwd conversions. I did a little unscientific research and most of the people I talked to thought there was about .05 to .07 difference. If a chevelle and a camaro can be factored separately there is no reason the fwd cars and the rwd cars couldn't be factored separately or so I thought. The SRAC had a fair amount of discussion on this topic and voted to recommend that the rule be changed to separate the fwd cars from the rwd ones. We never heard from the AHFS committee on this if my memory is right. It was like we didn't exists. I think it might take a small amount of additional work on NHRA's part to do this but not a lot.

On your combination I would say that because you were running your Cavalier 275 lbs lighter than your Camaro it's possible that you may not have the optimum converter, rear gear ratio or trans ratios in your new car. I would assume that you had all of these optomized for your Camaro. Your Cavalier might like these things a little different to get the most out of it.

[joe176]

Originally Posted by Greg Hill

Joe in 2008 when I was a member of the SRAC I had a couple of D3 racers ask me to help get the rule changed to allow separate factoring for the rear wheel drive cars in SS GT compared to the fwd conversions. I did a little unscientific research and most of the people I talked to thought there was about .05 to .07 difference. If a chevelle and a camaro can be factored separately there is no reason the fwd cars and the rwd cars couldn't be factored separately or so I thought. The SRAC had a fair amount of discussion on this topic and voted to recommend that the rule be changed to separate the fwd cars from the rwd ones. We never heard from the AHFS committee on this if my memory is right. It was like we didn't exists. I think it might take a small amount of additional work on NHRA's part to do this but not a lot.

On your combination I would say that because you were running your Cavalier 275 lbs lighter than your Camaro it's possible that you may not have the optimum converter, rear gear ratio or trans ratios in your new car. I would assume that you had all of these optomized for your Camaro. Your Cavalier might like these things a little different to get the most out of it.

Greg...you've got to be kidding me....this is laughable !!!!! Did you not read my post ????........ Don't assume ....enough said.

[Greg Hill]

Sorry I didn't look at your last paragraph.

[stefan callender]

Originally Posted by Greg Hill

Joe in 2008 when I was a member of the SRAC I had a couple of D3 racers ask me to help get the rule changed to allow separate factoring for the rear wheel drive cars in SS GT compared to the fwd conversions. I did a little unscientific research and most of the people I talked to thought there was about .05 to .07 difference. If a chevelle and a camaro can be factored separately there is no reason the fwd cars and the rwd cars couldn't be factored separately or so I thought. The SRAC had a fair amount of discussion on this topic and voted to recommend that the rule be changed to separate the fwd cars from the rwd ones. We never heard from the AHFS committee on this if my memory is right. It was like we didn't exists. I think it might take a small amount of additional work on NHRA's part to do this but not a lot.

On your combination I would say that because you were running your Cavalier 275 lbs lighter than your Camaro it's possible that you may not have the optimum converter, rear gear ratio or trans ratios in your new car. I would assume that you had all of these optomized for your Camaro. Your Cavalier might like these things a little different to get the most out of it.

Gregg, on what basis do you think that the FWD conversion cars are worth that much?? What two cars are you using as a comparison? Here is a guy that transplanted his drivetrain from one car to another, and has proven what it was worth with HIS combination. Maybe with another combination it would be different, apples to apples.

[keith ohanesian]

Everyone.. Put a lIttle Vegas in you!!

[Greg Hill]

Originally Posted by stefan callender

Gregg, on what basis do you think that the FWD conversion cars are worth that much?? What two cars are you using as a comparison? Here is a guy that transplanted his drivetrain from one car to another, and has proven what it was worth with HIS combination. Maybe with another combination it would be different, apples to apples.

I talked to people who ran both kinds of cars and that was kind if a concenus. Some of the guys with the rwd cars said a tenth and some of the guys with the fwd thought it was only .02 or .03. I think the faster cars would pick up more than slower ones because of the aerodynamics, although that's just my opinion. I do know most of the hp that a lot of these combinations got was from the fwd conversions, however that may be because those are the guys with the best motors and the most money. To really tell how much better one is over the other you would need to look at incrementals especially the back half.

[Bryan Worner]

Originally Posted by Greg Hill

I talked to people who ran both kinds of cars and that was kind if a concencus . Some of the guys with the rwd cars said a tenth and some of the guys with the fwd thought it was only .02 or .03. I think the faster cars would pick up more than slower ones because of the aerodynamics, although that's just my opinion. I do know most of the hp that a lot of these combinations got was from the fwd conversions, however that may be because those are the guys with the best motors and the most money. To really tell how much better one is over the other you would need to look at incrementals especially the back half.

One thing to remember here is Joe's Camaro was a very good/fast car. So if you're going to compare how much each of you picked up changing cars, it may vary some, based on the car itself!!!