Crate Engines in NHRA?

[Bob Pagano]

Randall & Dwight, I dont think its a dream or a passing thought. As nhra looses its grip and pushes traditional S & SS away we as a large group could then form our own deal. At that point Alex Denysenko type races can be run just like ADRL .

[Dwight Southerland]

Bob - I think that support in a smaller venue is more sustainable. The national level races only work when there is a healthy and large pool of participants to attract. The population of racers who are continuing to pour money and time into their operations just to participate at national level races is dwindling rapidly.

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by Hagen Gary

From what I gather, the risk vs reward was worth it years ago when you were doing it and my father started. How many new people have shown up out of nowhere in the last 10 years? I'm willing to bet its less than 1/10th of the people who left the sport.

Yes, years ago if you won Indy, and had to bomb your record in the final to win, you could build a different car with what you won. Still pays about the number of dollars, but they aren't worth much anymore. Ten grand in 1970 would build another car if you did your own work, and most of us did back then..

[Alan Roehrich]

The purse structure is just another symptom of the systemic disease that is NHRA management. I don't see how anyone can interpret the way NHRA treats class racers as anything other than disdain for a cash cow that they find it necessary to tolerate.

To a degree, I do agree with Billy that part of the reason for the lack of youth involvement is that they can build a cheaper bracket car and race for more money with less hassle and investment. But there's something else going on. The youth of today, in general, have been raised in an environment that discourages them from having any desire for strictly structured competition such as class racing. They'd rather go faster, with less work, and less investment. That's the prevailing attitude for 99% of today's youth that IS involved in motor sports, and it has been for a long time.

I've been working in the business since I was around 18 years old, and I've seen the attitude become more and more common. I think it's really a matter of the development and progress that higher end racing has brought to the aftermarket. Parts that were once found only in Modified, Comp, and Pro Stock, have now become as common as double hump small block Chevy heads and 750 Holley carburetors once were.

When most of us "old school" or "hard core" guys started in this, aluminum heads, shaft rockers, roller cams, billet cranks, and 14:1 compression were the domain of the "big boys". Now, 600 cubic inch 1200HP engines are as common as anything else in the pits. Super Comp and Super Gas are both full of them. "Back in the day", a 140MPH low nine second race car was a rare thing. But now, you can walk through the staging lanes and see near current Pro Stock chassis, and nearly as much HP, in a Super Gas car, that runs high sevens off the stop, and runs 165MPH at 9.90 on the stop.

For the youth of today, there's a ton more allure to that Super Gas car than there is to a killer traditional SS/A car, or even a SS/AH car. And Stock Eliminator? Boys, we ain't even in the ball park. Even the new cars that can run low nines at near150MPH are passe. Very few of them, far fewer than in the past, have any appreciation at all for what goes into a fast class car.

They came into the shop, and their eyes glazed over watching a Stock Eliminator engine going together. No big roller cam, no big Dominator intake, no CNC ported Big Chief heads, no 14:1 pistons. "Boring" they said, as they rolled their glazed eyes and wander off, looking for nitrous and bigger cams.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the entry fees drop substantially, and the purses tripled or quadrupled. In fact, I think that's just a good start. But I do not for a minute believe that if NHRA were to announce next Monday, that, effective immediately, the entry fee for a nation event would drop to a flat $200 for car, driver, and one crew, and the purse for a 64 car or larger field would be $5K to win, that we'd see a dramatic increase in the car count. Let's face it, you can still spend less and win more at a big bracket race weekend like the Tenn/Tuck bracket bash this past weekend. So class racing, for the most part, is never going to compete with bracket racing in that way. There will always be bracket races that pay more for less, and take a lot less work.

I'm not convinced about "ego" being the factor behind what a lot of people race, either. Just to take our own operation as an example, we race two 69 Camaros now. Neither owner is egotistical about going fast or spending money. They both just happen to love 69 Camaros, and they love to go fast. A guy that loves to go fast is going to build a big block upper class car, he's not going to build a 6 cylinder car. So we have a 427 in the AA/SA car, and a 396 in the SS/EA car. For a lot of people, us included, the low ten to low nine second zone is a real "sweet spot".

We had the little G/S 69 Camaro that I drove. And it was fun. No, it wasn't just fun, it was a blast. But if we still had it, odds are, it would have an iron head 396 or a 427 in it. It has nothing to do with ego, it's just that I find it a lot more fun to run low tens and high nines than I do to run elevens. And once you've been faster, until you get to the point where you know you aren't good enough to go that fast anymore, and you know you need to step down, you don't want to go slower.

We've got a ton of friends who have cool slower cars. We love the cars, and we don't feel superior to any of the friends who own them. There must be some sort of perception of "class warfare" in or behind this "ego" thing. Sure, there may be some people who have a big ego and a big wallet, in fact, I'm sure there are. But I'm just as sure that there are a whole lot more who are just "speed junkies", for lack of a better term. I think the latter outnumber the former by 30 to 1 or better.

I just find all the "ego" stuff and the "haves and have nots" stuff to be divisive, and counterproductive, not to mention just plain silly. It's just another wedge driven into the group as a whole, that keeps us from unifying in our own best interests. Like any group, everyone doesn't love everyone. Racers as a whole are a lot less divided than most, we share a lot of common ground. But it seems we sure are willing to let people and things distract us from our real problems.

Honestly, I almost think NHRA revels in our silly divisive attitudes, and while they may not do anything with a specific intent to foster them, I would not be surprised to find that they think that anything that has that side effect to be a bonus.

I don't pretend to have the answers, not by a long shot. I wish I had more and better answers to the problems we face.

[CrateCamaro]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Now, a current Stock Eliminator engine IS a well scienced race piece, I agree completely on that point. Actually, that's part of my point. You can't go BUY a crate motor, put it in, and be competitive. You still have to do exactly the same thing to a crate motor. At least, you do if you want to go fast. And it costs the same. The ONLY advantage to a crate motor, expense or difficulty wise, is not having to search for a few castings.

If you build a new crate motor, and you don't put the trick stuff in it, like race bred pistons, big pushrods, and the rest, it'll be a slug. All of that stuff has nothing at all to do with the argument against crate motors, that's just a matter of racers cheating, and NHRA deciding to allow it rather than police the class. They don't want to tech to prevent it, so they let it in.

NHRA has already proven they're not going to define and police anything. So why add a bunch of new stuff that they're not going to police and define better than what we already have? THAT is the problem with crate engines. They can come up with a new engine, on paper, with parts from a catalog, assign a soft factor to it, and start all over again, any time they want. NHRA will not add crate classes, they don't want more classes. Honestly, the majority racers don't want them either, and the class can't stand it.

For crate engines to get in NHRA, they'd be added into the current classes. We already have bogus paper crate cars, we really don't need any more of them.

I can sympathize with Chipper, having spent his money, and now being invested in something he's going to have a hard time racing. I hate to see it happen, to anyone.

I was going to be nice and just ignore this post but its snowing and all my "Crate Motor" parts are at the machine shop so your going to get a blasting...

Crate Motors really came into the picture in IHRA to help sell GM crate engines. They are nothing more than a replacement engine for a muscle car thats over the counter and has a warrenty. So when your tired old 350 295hp motor gives up...you can go to the dealer and purchace a 350 300hp or go for the 330hp 350 that has nothing more than 96 and up GM Vortec PICKUP TRUCK HEADS...yes we race with tow vehicle heads. The cool thing is that Mopar and Ford jumped on board and had their own crate engines...so now we have 60's racing all over again with the big 3. Its not like we are lightly factored either. Have a look at some of the combo's before you even talk about soft factoring.

Im sorry that you are a hard nose die hard stock eliminator racer that cant see outside of rotten cast iron intakes and garbage 40 year old carbs that have the right numbers. This is a thing of the past. I would love nothing more than to go buy a 396 and build it to stock eliminator glory....even a 327 or 350...but the parts are not out there anymore. Go to a local wrecking yard and try to find one of these engines...they are not there. And if you do find a usable core in the local paper they want your first born child to own it. And really what is the difference if they allow crate engines in NHRA? You think it matters when the tree is coming down? No it doesnt. You need to step back and look at the whole picture...never mind heads up runs and "class eliminations"...all stockers weather it be a 350 295hp or a crate 350 330hp ITS A BRACKET RACE....a glorified bracket race with rules and a 30x9 slick. WAKE UP.

Im not interested in having an internet war with you. Im sure your a great guy and everyone wants to give you a high five and hero biscut because you have a real stocker but there are young guys like myself who find it a bit easier to build and find a crate engine. You are right about one thing...we dont buy them at the dealer plunk them in and race. It takes alot of tweeking to make it run just the same as any stocker engine. I only know of one guy who actually bought a crate motor at the dealer and then took it apart and changed it over to run stock. I take pride in the combo I run and alot of my friends also run the crate combos and love it.

So instead of bashing and talking about something you really dont know much about...talk to some "crate engine" racers and ask us about it instead of not allowing us to play in your sand box. If IHRA folds up we would have nowhere to go...and im not going to build a complete new combo to race NHRA. And its not like there is only 6 guys in the world who race crate motor...there is thousands. So instead of being bias and saying "NO WAY THIS CANT HAPPEN" think outside the box a little bit brother!

Geesh...you guys dont even complain this much about a stocker with a power adder

[Ed Wright]

It's not likely at all to happen, but due to NHRA not wanting to add classes. Not guys here not liking them.

I still don't understand building a car limited to either association alone.

Like some bracket racers around here that run an 1/8th mile track at home, gearing the car too low to run 1/4 mile. Why would anybody do that?

[Alan Roehrich]

Blast away if it makes you feel good, I could care less.

If you can't find parts to build a 396/375, or a 255/350, you just aren't looking. Sorry, I'm not buying that line. It's a crock. I can go out and drag up all of the heads, cranks, intakes and carburetors to build either in a couple of days. Anyone that can't just isn't looking.

When we had the G/S car, I ended up with an extra set of the good 441 heads, an intake, and 3 carburetors, almost by accident. I passed on 2-3 steel cranks. We didn't even have the car for more than a year, and I had enough stuff I found just fooling around AFTER the car was bought to build another complete engine. I didn't even have $300 in all of the castings and carburetors, and could have had the cranks for $100 each.

You don't even have to hunt for anything to build a 396 now, GM sells the new replacement heads and intakes, Quickfuel sells the carburetors, Dart is even making a run of 396 blocks. There are 3-4 companies that have all of the 6223 cranks you can use, or call Bullet, they have them prepped and ready to go. So the whine about finding parts for a 396 is a complete joke. You can buy it all over the counter just like a crate motor. So, yeah, if you want to take the easy route, and be sure you have a place to race, you can do it. There's you a "crate motor" that fits in a regular class, so you're just clean out of excuses snow. You don't even have to get your hands dirty, open the classifieds, or do anything but pick up the phone. Jeg's or Summit will deliver most of it to your door, and you can take it to the machine shop just like your 330-350.

And if you DON'T want to build one all aftermarket, 454 blocks are everywhere, have one sleeved, it's been done that way for years. You can buy an original 163 intake on ebay for $200 or less. A 3310 Holley you can buy new, or buy one of the old ones off ebay. You can find 840 heads on ebay for under $1k, all you have to do is open your eyes and look. The same pieces will build you a 427, just don't sleeve the block down.

I was working on crate motors before they ever GOT to IHRA, for other racing series, you ain't telling me anything about crate motors I don't already know.

If it makes you feel better, go ahead and blast some more, I can take it just fine. Some of us DO care about class eliminations and heads up racing. And most of us with any common sense at all see that NHRA is not at all likely to put crate motors in their own classes. They just took the fuel injected cars OUT of their own classes, and put them in the original classes. And they put the new Ford crate motor cars in the regular classes, too.

Think outside the box? Are we going to find a new paradigm too? I just love cliches, they're so useful. How about we fix what is INSIDE the box FIRST, before we go outside the box or dump a bunch more stuff in it? There's a new paradigm for you.

[Mark Callanan]

Originally Posted by CrateCamaro

I was going to be nice and just ignore this post but its snowing and all my "Crate Motor" parts are at the machine shop so your going to get a blasting...

Crate Motors really came into the picture in IHRA to help sell GM crate engines. They are nothing more than a replacement engine for a muscle car thats over the counter and has a warrenty. So when your tired old 350 295hp motor gives up...you can go to the dealer and purchace a 350 300hp or go for the 330hp 350 that has nothing more than 96 and up GM Vortec PICKUP TRUCK HEADS...yes we race with tow vehicle heads. The cool thing is that Mopar and Ford jumped on board and had their own crate engines...so now we have 60's racing all over again with the big 3. Its not like we are lightly factored either. Have a look at some of the combo's before you even talk about soft factoring.

Im sorry that you are a hard nose die hard stock eliminator racer that cant see outside of rotten cast iron intakes and garbage 40 year old carbs that have the right numbers. This is a thing of the past. I would love nothing more than to go buy a 396 and build it to stock eliminator glory....even a 327 or 350...but the parts are not out there anymore. Go to a local wrecking yard and try to find one of these engines...they are not there. And if you do find a usable core in the local paper they want your first born child to own it. And really what is the difference if they allow crate engines in NHRA? You think it matters when the tree is coming down? No it doesnt. You need to step back and look at the whole picture...never mind heads up runs and "class eliminations"...all stockers weather it be a 350 295hp or a crate 350 330hp ITS A BRACKET RACE....a glorified bracket race with rules and a 30x9 slick. WAKE UP.

Im not interested in having an internet war with you. Im sure your a great guy and everyone wants to give you a high five and hero biscut because you have a real stocker but there are young guys like myself who find it a bit easier to build and find a crate engine. You are right about one thing...we dont buy them at the dealer plunk them in and race. It takes alot of tweeking to make it run just the same as any stocker engine. I only know of one guy who actually bought a crate motor at the dealer and then took it apart and changed it over to run stock. I take pride in the combo I run and alot of my friends also run the crate combos and love it.

So instead of bashing and talking about something you really dont know much about...talk to some "crate engine" racers and ask us about it instead of not allowing us to play in your sand box. If IHRA folds up we would have nowhere to go...and im not going to build a complete new combo to race NHRA. And its not like there is only 6 guys in the world who race crate motor...there is thousands. So instead of being bias and saying "NO WAY THIS CANT HAPPEN" think outside the box a little bit brother!

Geesh...you guys dont even complain this much about a stocker with a power adder

Just curious
Since you are from Canada where do you race that?
Are you a class racer or a weekend racer at a local track?

[Chad Rhodes]

Originally Posted by CrateCamaro

I was going to be nice and just ignore this post but its snowing and all my "Crate Motor" parts are at the machine shop so your going to get a blasting...

Crate Motors really came into the picture in IHRA to help sell GM crate engines. They are nothing more than a replacement engine for a muscle car thats over the counter and has a warrenty. So when your tired old 350 295hp motor gives up...you can go to the dealer and purchace a 350 300hp or go for the 330hp 350 that has nothing more than 96 and up GM Vortec PICKUP TRUCK HEADS...yes we race with tow vehicle heads. The cool thing is that Mopar and Ford jumped on board and had their own crate engines...so now we have 60's racing all over again with the big 3. Its not like we are lightly factored either. Have a look at some of the combo's before you even talk about soft factoring.

Im sorry that you are a hard nose die hard stock eliminator racer that cant see outside of rotten cast iron intakes and garbage 40 year old carbs that have the right numbers. This is a thing of the past. I would love nothing more than to go buy a 396 and build it to stock eliminator glory....even a 327 or 350...but the parts are not out there anymore. Go to a local wrecking yard and try to find one of these engines...they are not there. And if you do find a usable core in the local paper they want your first born child to own it. And really what is the difference if they allow crate engines in NHRA? You think it matters when the tree is coming down? No it doesnt. You need to step back and look at the whole picture...never mind heads up runs and "class eliminations"...all stockers weather it be a 350 295hp or a crate 350 330hp ITS A BRACKET RACE....a glorified bracket race with rules and a 30x9 slick. WAKE UP.

Im not interested in having an internet war with you. Im sure your a great guy and everyone wants to give you a high five and hero biscut because you have a real stocker but there are young guys like myself who find it a bit easier to build and find a crate engine. You are right about one thing...we dont buy them at the dealer plunk them in and race. It takes alot of tweeking to make it run just the same as any stocker engine. I only know of one guy who actually bought a crate motor at the dealer and then took it apart and changed it over to run stock. I take pride in the combo I run and alot of my friends also run the crate combos and love it.

So instead of bashing and talking about something you really dont know much about...talk to some "crate engine" racers and ask us about it instead of not allowing us to play in your sand box. If IHRA folds up we would have nowhere to go...and im not going to build a complete new combo to race NHRA. And its not like there is only 6 guys in the world who race crate motor...there is thousands. So instead of being bias and saying "NO WAY THIS CANT HAPPEN" think outside the box a little bit brother!

Geesh...you guys dont even complain this much about a stocker with a power adder

i'm a younger guy too, and couldn't disagree with you more

[Dwight Southerland]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

My statements and comments are not arguing that NHRA ought to start "crate motor" classes, just that such classes and the cars that are defined by them are totally within the same functional rules and concepts of the whole of Stock Eliminator as it is defined now. It's kind of like when Farmer told me years ago that "stock" is what is in the class guides and what is "legal" is what passes tech. I just don't see the necessity of the vehement remarks that come out from the NHRA guys when IHRA crate motor cars are discussed.

CrateCamaro, I agree with what you say about the attitude that frequently is displayed here. Nobody really thinks or promotes the idea that somebody can go to the dealer, buy a motor out of stock, put it in a car and go competitive racing. The advantage of being able to build a motor with commonly available parts that can be serviced easily is attractive to many people who are not personally capable. Having the option of a list of additional motors for more optional classes sounds exciting to me. That makes some cars more attractive that are currently restricted to a single production engine.