AA/S AAA/S and Class consolidation

[Bruce Noland]

Guys,

My point is the version of the AHFS that we the racers approved should be the HP system that we use. Not this unauthorized and unpublished (in advance) version that Wesley has come up with. Just read the first version of the AHFS that we all approved and then read Wesley's twisted version. And remember he has made all these changes and not given any advanced notification of the changes. That should be enough to get your blood boiling.

What would I want to add to the version that we approved? Nothing!

You can forget about all the trick math and weather factors because that would require an expenditure of nhra cash!

The original system was working as well as can be expected. It has been said many times, that there is no one system that will cure the HP factoring problems. The original AHFS was doing the job it was intended to do but the powercrats at nhra, like Wesley, won't leave it alone.

[bill dedman]

Mark; is the glass half full or half empty? Sounds to me like the indexes are at fault. How can an engine make more horsepower in a wagon than it makes in a light two-door sedan?

It can't.

If there's a problem relative to the index, look at the index, not the horsepower involved; you KNOW the output of the engine doesn't change from chassis-to-chassis. The problem of inappropriate indexes is spread throughout the entire class system. To predicaate a horsepower factoring system that dictates factrored horsepower based in the vehicle the engine it's in makes NO sense to me.

Looks like NHRA needs to adjust the index, if it's wrong (and it sure looks that way.)

The situation you point out clearly illustrates that the indexes in those two classes are badly skewed.... one of them, at least, is too fast, or too slow. They need to fix THAT, not continue this fairytale of engines changing output depending on their 'host vehicle." You KNOW that doesn't really happen.

Looks like we have the tail wagging the dog, here.

As I said, I am not a (class) racer, so maybe I shouldn't even be posting on this; it just seemed that if Bruce was actually going to address the AFHS issue with the Ivory Tower, then this issue could be a part of that, But, since he hasn't replied to my post, perhaps he has no interest in making this a part of his presentation; I can only guess. It could be that he doesn't want to "muddy the water" by presenting too many issues at one time, or perhaps he agrees with you that incorrect indexes can be dealt with by skewing the horsepower numbers in SELECT vehicles, and not applying the factored HP for an engine "across the board."

Maybe he'll let us know how he feels about this, one way or the other.

Again, thanks for your time and input.

Bill

[Keith Anderson]

I think the main reason for NOT combining FI cards with Carb cars is rather simple...if you consider that the developement, R&D, etc on the carb cars vs FI cars are not the same....Carb cars have almost reached their potential, while FI cars with fuel injection, software programs, etc have far more future R & D to improve performance.

With all (blocks, cranks, rods, pistons, cyl heads, cams, etc) assumed legal for both, the FI cars will continue to find greater performance improvements beyond these hard parts. Also as someone has noted, a FI car has a far greater advantage with weather changes, a fact that makes a carb car far more difficult to correct for, yes you can change jets, timing, but you can't change the fuel curve, or timing curve, reprogram the software, as a FI car.

just my 2 cents....

[Glenn Briglio]

Hey Keith why can't you change the fuel curve on a carb via jets,metering rods, air bleeds etc?Distributors have provisions for timing advances,retards, and some manufacturers have programmable timing controls for advances or retards.

[Bernie Cunningham]

Keith, please re-read mine and Evans comments on this subject. All combo's are still evolving, higher and slower classes, it's not limited at all. FI cars are not 'magic' and will vary (sometimes worse) than any carb car. Once they are mapped and programmed ya leave em alone, just like a carb car except for a possible altitude 'tune up' change (i.e. jet change).

R.J., You talk about "FI hp factors that don't equate" well check out ANY Indy qualifing sheet to find a bunch of carb combo's, in the top half, that ya gotta wonder about!

Thx. B

[Dick Butler]

What a complex mess, Class racing has become. Unfortunately everyone is right, as far as they go.
A motor makes the same HP regardless which car, Yes
The body shape can affect the performance Yes
Choices of transmissions available affects some cars more than others Yes PG versus Turbo Vs Stick.
Too many bogus hp motors. TRUE
TOO many new underfactored motors from the factory each year given low hp to make them popular and suddenly kill off the OLD stuff.... TRUE
The indexes are off. Depends on which cars you use as the ideal car for the class performance.

Ideas. AH is stable one car, on combo class, no factoring differences and it works, YES

Should all classes be one car, one carb, one trans variable ? NO the issue is all the above and without a real committe or dictator who cares which cars are bogus no changes will stop the smart people who can afford to change cars from winning by changing cars, motor, trans,. It becomes an expensive proposition as factoring in the inferior methods used so far( mainly do to sensitivity of system being so slow) leaves the fast stuff dominating till the whole field is replaced with the originally bogus car and by that time a new "baby" with bogus hp is allowed to become the killer. etc etc. 400 motor, inj 350,inj305 now fords next?
Starting point should be to ......Recognize it is only a sport run by business men not racers. They officially care about how many people show up and until that number drops the methods will persist. Unfortunately Class racing will be replaced by more Bracket programs... T/S,T/D. Unless the factories and sponsors push for changes we as small people cannot negotiate.

[Bruce Noland]

Bill,

Reply to your post? Ivory tower?

I have told you exactly what I think about the AHFS. And yes it would help if you were a racer because you would then have a serious investment in the proper administration of the AHFS.

Many racers have been had by the latest round of AHFS hits, and they ain't happy about it either. So maybe you should go sit on the Ivory Tower. Or, regardless of your disclaimers, get a Class car.

[RJ Sledge]

Bernie

You are correct my friend about the Indy Qualifying, but I was referring to the Divisional races where they can let it all hang out without fear of going too fast. That is they can go up to 1.40 under and not worry, but its just my observation.

I will also agree that there are both carb and FI combo's that need to be dealt with. Sometimes we all look at things from different sides of the fence, I just would like some sort of legitimacy when it comes to combo's that have not been reined in.

RJ

[bill dedman]

Bruce said,

"Reply to your post?" Yes; I appreciate the time you took to reply to my post.

Then, Bruce said, "Ivory Tower"? My reference to an "Ivory Tower" was a mildly sarcastic comment on the "powers that be" in Glendora, who don't seem to understand or care much about the finer points of what a mess they have on their hands in regard to the AFHS. It, no way, was aimed at you, Bruce,or any other racer. I'm not sure you took it that way, but that's what it was; a reference to the Druids...

Then, Bruce said, "I have told you exactly what I think about the AHFS."
That you did, but my request was not related to your opinion of the AHFS, but rather, an ancillary problem with the way horsepower factors are applied to select cars instead of ALL cars with that engine. I was in hopes that maybe you could include your thoughts about that situation along with the changes you were suggesting (which BTW, I completely agree with.) For all I know, you may think it's perfectly okay to keep that system; I was asking if it was something you could try to get changed (if that is your desire), since I didn't think the drivers were polled about going to that system before they made that change.
You never addressed that issue in your response. I'm not sure what that means, RE: YOUR feelings about that issue.

Then, Bruce said, "And yes it would help if you were a racer because you would then have a serious investment in the proper administration of the AHFS."

I can't blame you for feeling that way, but unless I am mistaken, there is a Class Racer BB for "racers only," and participation on that board is limited to people who, like you, currently have a permanent number and campaign a Class car. This board, by default, would seem to be for the rest of us, who are serious about seeing things done "correctly," and who care deeply about the health of the sport. We have opinions that,ofttimes come from many years of careful scrutiny of the rules and practices of NHRA Class racing, and you know what they say about opinions... well, that was mine. In short, I make no apologies for posting my opinion here, but realize that that's all it is..... just MY opinion. Yours may vary.

Then, Bruce said," Many racers have been had by the latest round of AHFS hits, and they ain't happy about it either."

I don't know what that was in reference to, but I am 100% in agreement with that statement. You said it in a manner that made it seem that I was somehow contentious about it, but that is ~so~ not true. I heartily support what you are trying to do, and agree that something needs to be done. I am in no way disagreeing with you on any of your AHFS stance. In fact, I applaud it!

Finally, Bruce said, "So maybe you should go sit on the Ivory Tower. Or, regardless of your disclaimers, get a Class car."

I have NO IDEA where that came from. I didn't disagree with anything you said, and don't understand your attitude in writing something like that. I surely didn't mean to offend you in any way; I was just asking if you'd be interested in addressing the problem (as I see it, it's a problem) of the way they assign factored horsepower to select cars, when someone "earns" an increase. That was ALL I was asking.

Insofar as getting a Class car, I wish with all my heart that I could afford to go Class racing, but it's not in the cards for me,. The fact that I can't afford to build a legitimate Class car doesn't mean, however, that I cease to care about what goes on. I have some close friends who DO have Class cars and I see what they are up against with this ridiculous AHFS, and am eager to do what I can to help change it. I guess whether my opinion is a valid one or not, depends on how much of it somebody agrees with. Having been a tech at local strips (as an NHRA Area Tech Advisor 1960-1964 in Div. IV), racing a Class car for several years, and helping friends with their Class cars over the years, and attending NHRA drag races "religiously" since 1955 (no typo) gives me a perspective that a lot of folks may not have. Maybe my opinion MIGHT be worth something, even though I don't currently race anything but a Bracket car.

At any rate, it's all still just my opinion.... nothing more.

Thanks for listening.

Bill

[Dick Butler]

Bill, Very fairly stated.