I've been thinkin'.....delayed a bit. - Page 6

tgriffith · 05-01-2007, 10:10 AM

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Michael Beard · 05-01-2007, 10:42 AM

>> Can't you make a post without writing a book.

No. Maybe my posts are longer because I not only express an opinion, but try to support it as well.

>> Staggering the tree is the answer, you don't know what the F*** your talking about. Counting the bulbs down, get real man.

Average human reaction time is about .200. The third amber comes on at -.500. R/T = Driver Reaction Time + Vehicle Reaction Time. That means that unless your vehicle reaction time (rollout) is .30 or better, you could not cut a perfect light without counting (anticipating the 3rd light). There are a lot of Stockers out there that don't have a rollout better than .35!

>> (they use a 1---2--go routine) You can't be serious.

At Pageland, the rollout is crazy loose. I was leaving on the second bulb going out to come up with .00x's, even though the car 60'd a 1.49! The rollout for my car at that track was a .41. I wasn't even looking at the third bulb! At Piedmont, my car's rollout was more like a .37. Even though I feel like I'm leaving off the third bulb, technically, I'm anticipating it by several hundredths. Ain't the best spot in the world, but it's workable.

Unscrew the bottom bulb on your practice tree sometime. If you can still hit the tree, you're counting, whether you realize it or not.

>> The wrong or cheating here are the people who are leaving off the top bulb

Who's leaving off the top? The good drivers in the right car are just as good off the bottom, and by blocking the tree, they can still 'first flash' race, there's no need to top bulb race anyway. It's not delay boxes that make Super Pro tough, it's $50K 4-link dragsters. (Shout out to Chris Plott, who won Top ET footbraking his Cougar at Mooresville on Saturday!)

You can see a top bulb variance of .03. With a variance of .02, you'd make a delay box user .030 on the tree. But again, I think it's a moot point, because I don't think anybody's using them. When someone did, he got caught.

>> With the idea being we'd see a change in who's a frequent wiener....

Doubt it. While the starting line is extremely important, the upper echelon of drivers are winning racers by dialing and top end strategies. You should watch the local Box guys carrying .05 in the 1/8th mile in their dragsters that can repeat within thousandths all day.... makes you shake your head and go "WHY???"

>> you don't know what the F*** your talking about.

Mmmm.... yeeeeah. You let me know when I've acquired enough experience to validate my opinions. ;-) Now, if a driver's season average reaction time isn't in the .020's, how can that driver say what other people can or cannot see, or what other people can and cannot do?

Tim won't talk on himself, but anybody that can win the NHRA National Sportsman Championship in a stock street-driven Jeep Grand Cherokee, and nearly win the IHRA Stock World Championship in a FWD Cavalier (and some 9-passenger wagon) more than likely knows a thing or two about counting the tree.

I respect Robert Pare's opinion -- 2-time Bracket Finals champ.

$.02,

Michael Beard
Staging Light Graphic Design & Printing
Duck Tape/Loctite Racing
H - I - J/CM '80 Volare 360 Magnum

Dwight Southerland · 05-01-2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Average human reaction time is about .200. The third amber comes on at -.500. R/T = Driver Reaction Time + Vehicle Reaction Time. That means that unless your vehicle reaction time (rollout) is .30 or better, you could not cut a perfect light without counting (anticipating the 3rd light). There are a lot of Stockers out there that don't have a rollout better than .35!

Michael-

You have stated facts that point to why some people swear by delay boxes. It's not that the box improves their ability to react to the tree any better, it is that the box allows them a means to overcome the deficiencies of their own inability to react fast enough and/or their car's inability to react fast enough. If the combination of personal reaction time is .250 sec and the car has a reaction time of only .350 sec, there is no way to bottom bulb race with any success. Leaving between one light and another is not as consistent as reacting to a change in visual stimuli, by scientific evidence, so this guy is set up for reduced sucess because of the mechanical situation. Enter the delay box and voila, he can overcome the limitations. Maybe that is one factor why faster cars seem to win more - they have the ability to do the necessary .300-or-better reaction time. This situation is why I am impressed by drivers of slow cars who win consistently. Do you remember the "Mr. Dirt" series in Super Stock magazine years ago?? All this stuff is what it takes to be a good driver.

Robert Marshall · 05-01-2007, 01:41 PM

Will someone please, may be Mike Beards, answer me one question. Why is it that ALL the dominate racers I have either spoken to or overheard a conversation are adamantly against delay box in comp and s/s.

d steiger · 05-01-2007, 01:46 PM

Just my 2 cents, but where is it written that stock or superstock is about driving, or being the best driver.
It seems like this was supposed to be a performance oriented class, but we have all but lost that part of class racing.
I think Pat has the right idea with cic type racing for stock and super stock.

Mike Pearson · 05-01-2007, 01:46 PM

I to have changed my vote from no to yes for reasons much the same as Mr. Bowtie Bomber. ( what is it with hiding behind these screen names ) Anyone who thinks a spec button will change anything is a fool. Racers are very adaptive and will figure a way to work around the rule. It would be as simple as taping a ballon or a piece of foam to your thumb and you will slow the action of the button used. Or maybe using some sort of spring loaded plunger to activate the spec button. I bet if you mount the spec button on the brake pedal it would slow down the reaction time.
The long stroke buttons are not actually a delay device, when the switch on the button is de energized the trans brake solenoid is instantly realeased. There is no delay. these are just slow buttons.
I dont know of any one in superstock who is not using some sort of long stroke button. With the LED bulbs and a 127 60' time leaving on the bottom yellow you have to have a button of this type or you will be red. I use the 5-0 button with almost no shim to get a green light. seems like there alot more stock guys involved in this debate than S/S racers. What do some of you championship contenders think? Dan, Peter, Anthony, Jimmy
I would rather race with a delay box than have NHRA pick some button that I can't be competitive with. Next they will tell you what RPM to leave at or what pressure your tires must have or what shock setting to run. maybe they will tell you you have to use your thumb or your index finger to actuate the brake button or where you will have to mount the button. These are all ways that we all use to control our reaction times.

Mike

Kevin Garceau · 05-01-2007, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Will someone please, may be Mike Beards, answer me one question. Why is it that ALL the dominate racers I have either spoken to or overheard a conversation are adamantly against delay box in comp and s/s.

Because they dominate for a reason - they are better at driving than most. They are probably better at both ends of the track. Putting delay boxes in will tighten up EVERYONES reaction time. They may not need it and win alot of rounds because of it.

I have said this for years... it is harder to consistently cut good lights off the bottom bulb, but those that can and do cut consistently good lights will dominate that field.

Wanna play mind games?

Robert Marshall · 05-01-2007, 02:15 PM

Kevin, if that's the case, WHY in hell are most racers voting NO to the box issue.

Michael Beard · 05-01-2007, 02:28 PM

Bottom-bulbing takes skill. That makes it fun.

Michael Beard
Staging Light Graphic Design & Printing
Duck Tape/Loctite Racing
H - I - J/CM '80 Volare 360 Magnum

Robert Marshall · 05-01-2007, 02:48 PM

M. Beard, from your post, can I assume you have voted NO To delay boxs?

05-01-2007, 10:42 AM	#52
Michael Beard VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 4,060 Likes: 0 Liked 13 Times in 9 Posts	>> Can't you make a post without writing a book. No. Maybe my posts are longer because I not only express an opinion, but try to support it as well. >> Staggering the tree is the answer, you don't know what the F* your talking about. Counting the bulbs down, get real man. Average human reaction time is about .200. The third amber comes on at -.500. R/T = Driver Reaction Time + Vehicle Reaction Time. That means that unless your vehicle reaction time (rollout) is .30 or better, you could not cut a perfect light without counting (anticipating the 3rd light). There are a lot of Stockers out there that don't have a rollout better than .35! >> (they use a 1---2--go routine) You can't be serious. At Pageland, the rollout is crazy loose. I was leaving on the second bulb going out to come up with .00x's, even though the car 60'd a 1.49! The rollout for my car at that track was a .41. I wasn't even looking at the third bulb! At Piedmont, my car's rollout was more like a .37. Even though I feel like I'm leaving off the third bulb, technically, I'm anticipating it by several hundredths. Ain't the best spot in the world, but it's workable. Unscrew the bottom bulb on your practice tree sometime. If you can still hit the tree, you're counting, whether you realize it or not. >> The wrong or cheating here are the people who are leaving off the top bulb Who's leaving off the top? The good drivers in the right car are just as good off the bottom, and by blocking the tree, they can still 'first flash' race, there's no need to top bulb race anyway. It's not delay boxes that make Super Pro tough, it's $50K 4-link dragsters. (Shout out to Chris Plott, who won Top ET footbraking his Cougar at Mooresville on Saturday!) You can see a top bulb variance of .03. With a variance of .02, you'd make a delay box user .030 on the tree. But again, I think it's a moot point, because I don't think anybody's using them. When someone did, he got caught. >> With the idea being we'd see a change in who's a frequent wiener.... Doubt it. While the starting line is extremely important, the upper echelon of drivers are winning racers by dialing and top end strategies. You should watch the local Box guys carrying .05 in the 1/8th mile in their dragsters that can repeat within thousandths all day.... makes you shake your head and go "WHY???" >> you don't know what the F* your talking about. Mmmm.... yeeeeah. You let me know when I've acquired enough experience to validate my opinions. ;-) Now, if a driver's season average reaction time isn't in the .020's, how can that driver say what other people can or cannot see, or what other people can and cannot do? Tim won't talk on himself, but anybody that can win the NHRA National Sportsman Championship in a stock street-driven Jeep Grand Cherokee, and nearly win the IHRA Stock World Championship in a FWD Cavalier (and some 9-passenger wagon) more than likely knows a thing or two about counting the tree. I respect Robert Pare's opinion -- 2-time Bracket Finals champ. $.02, Michael Beard Staging Light Graphic Design & Printing Duck Tape/Loctite Racing H - I - J/CM '80 Volare 360 Magnum __________________ Michael Beard - NHRA/IHRA 3216 S/SS

05-01-2007, 01:46 PM	#56
Mike Pearson VIP Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,452 Likes: 615 Liked 1,937 Times in 582 Posts	I to have changed my vote from no to yes for reasons much the same as Mr. Bowtie Bomber. ( what is it with hiding behind these screen names ) Anyone who thinks a spec button will change anything is a fool. Racers are very adaptive and will figure a way to work around the rule. It would be as simple as taping a ballon or a piece of foam to your thumb and you will slow the action of the button used. Or maybe using some sort of spring loaded plunger to activate the spec button. I bet if you mount the spec button on the brake pedal it would slow down the reaction time. The long stroke buttons are not actually a delay device, when the switch on the button is de energized the trans brake solenoid is instantly realeased. There is no delay. these are just slow buttons. I dont know of any one in superstock who is not using some sort of long stroke button. With the LED bulbs and a 127 60' time leaving on the bottom yellow you have to have a button of this type or you will be red. I use the 5-0 button with almost no shim to get a green light. seems like there alot more stock guys involved in this debate than S/S racers. What do some of you championship contenders think? Dan, Peter, Anthony, Jimmy I would rather race with a delay box than have NHRA pick some button that I can't be competitive with. Next they will tell you what RPM to leave at or what pressure your tires must have or what shock setting to run. maybe they will tell you you have to use your thumb or your index finger to actuate the brake button or where you will have to mount the button. These are all ways that we all use to control our reaction times. Mike __________________ Mike Pearson 2485 SS

05-01-2007, 02:28 PM	#59
Michael Beard VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 4,060 Likes: 0 Liked 13 Times in 9 Posts	Bottom-bulbing takes skill. That makes it fun. Michael Beard Staging Light Graphic Design & Printing Duck Tape/Loctite Racing H - I - J/CM '80 Volare 360 Magnum __________________ Michael Beard - NHRA/IHRA 3216 S/SS

05-01-2007, 10:10 AM	#51
tgriffith Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 187 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	.

05-01-2007, 01:41 PM	#54
Robert Marshall Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 7 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Will someone please, may be Mike Beards, answer me one question. Why is it that ALL the dominate racers I have either spoken to or overheard a conversation are adamantly against delay box in comp and s/s.

05-01-2007, 01:46 PM	#55
d steiger Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: indianapolis Posts: 2 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just my 2 cents, but where is it written that stock or superstock is about driving, or being the best driver. It seems like this was supposed to be a performance oriented class, but we have all but lost that part of class racing. I think Pat has the right idea with cic type racing for stock and super stock.

05-01-2007, 02:15 PM	#58
Robert Marshall Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 7 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Kevin, if that's the case, WHY in hell are most racers voting NO to the box issue.

05-01-2007, 02:48 PM	#60
Robert Marshall Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 7 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	M. Beard, from your post, can I assume you have voted NO To delay boxs?