Bob Shaw is a bad man

[Evan Smith]

Billy,

I know this is long, but you asked. No one liked the old system (human input) because people stated that favorites were played, and no one seems to like the current system (alleged automatic system) because it doesn't work as effectively as it should. My opinion is that it should be a combination of both, as this is the only way to make the minute and major changes in a reasonable amount of time. And no one wants to hear this, but EVERY run needs to count so NHRA can gather real data, not sandbagging data from national events. Most of us run far more opens and points races so that is where the data should come from. Many racers only run two, maybe three, nationals a year, if any, so it becomes easy to hold back. If all the runs counted then you could only hold back so much and the AHFS would be working it's magic every race weekend.

I have had numerous conversations with NHRA officials about hp factoring. For instance I argued that the 440-6 should carry the same hp factor for the Cuda/Challenger as is does for the B-body. It is the exact same engine in both, but the B-body carries 417, I believe the Cuda/Challenger is 406 or 407. If Bruce's 350 (leaf-spring Camaro) and a Corvette are counted together with totally dissimilar engine setback and suspension, how could they not count the Cuda/Challenger and the B-body with similar engine/trans layout? All I got when I laid this logic on them is "that hp change was done before the new system was in place so we can't do anything about it." Come on, it is their sand box, they can do whatever they want. The idea is to keep racing fair and both of those combos should race with the same HP, whether it is 407 or 417. I'm beginning to think no one at NHRA wants to solve the real problems we are facing.

I'm not here to bash NHRA, but the fact remains that it wouldn't take a big effort to improve things. I tried like hell to work on the triggers and got nowhere. I tried to allow us to have more than 100 lbs removable weight and got nowhere. If you can move three classes, who cares if the weight is welded in or bolted in properly? The problem is we need someone in NHRA to be in COMMAND of the Stock/Super Stock rules and hp factoring. All it takes is NHRA to assign this position to an intelligent soul who understands our cars and what it is like to tow to a race, to spend money and race these classes. Then this person can work with the SRAC members to make simple but effective decisions. But sadly, I just don't see this happening.

Evan

[Billy Nees]

Evan, I can appreciate all that you have tried to do in regards to the AHFS. I also agree that all runs should count and that all HP factors should be based on the engine combo and not body specific.I do not agree that we need a "human touch" for the simple fact that it will be just a matter of time before Racer X gets factored for disagreeing with Tech Inspector Y. I've been around long enough to remember things like that. I also think that we need to include the altitude factored tracks in the equation or if NHRA doesn't have enough faith in its factors then do away with them completely.

[Bob Pagano]

Good people were in place, NHRA did not hear what they were being told or chose not to listen. There was no one better then Wesley but when your hands a tied and then cut off what can you say. Tech needs an overhaul, from the top down. Just look back to Farmer now look to now, somewhere in there lays the answer, take all your best tech's and tie their hands and you get a pile of you know what.

[bill dedman]

Bob,

What you said (all of it!)

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!





Bill

[Mark Yacavone]

Evan said: "If Bruce's 350 (leaf-spring Camaro) and a Corvette are counted together with totally dissimilar engine setback and suspension, how could they not count the Cuda/Challenger and the B-body with similar engine/trans layout?"

This is probably what happens when someone comes on here and calls the guy in charge of the AHFS, "The Boobster" . Who says there's no human element involved in the AHFS?

It does take some human element to get similar body styles at the same rating.
My Olds Omega (350 Buick) combo got lumped in with Bert Morgan's 4400 lbs Regal wagon hp hit
It took me 6 mos. to get it straightened out ,with help from Len.
Meanwhile, the 72 Chevy 350 /4bbl had 5 different ratings on the same motor.
It's got to be all body styles, ....or individual combos that get hit. Not in between .
That'll take someone who knows what he's doing.

[bill dedman]

I don't know whose idea it was to muddy the water by assigning a dffierent horsepower rating to an engine, depending on what chassis it's in, but that ranks right up there with... with... well, I am at a total loss for words to compare this idea with anything else, because I've never seen anything so ill-advised in my 54 years of scrutinizing NHRA rules.

Sure, a given SBC in a Corvette, which presents less frontal area, more efficient aerodynamics, and has better weight distribution because of engine setback, may perform better than that same engine in a Chevelle hardtop, but the fact is, the combinations are endless, and trying to level the playing field between the myriad combinations using this method is a task that would never be finished, and in the meantime creates more problems than it solves.

The smartest thing they could do is dump this piece of genius and simplify, as best they can, a very difficult task, to the extent that they can. Car classification is hard enough when it's accomplished in the most basic way possible. Adding a totally impertinent set of parameters to an already complicated process is just an unnecessary complication that in the scheme of things, doesn't actually improve the classification procedure in any way, shape, or form.

All it does is increase the complexity of an already complicated situation.

The guy who thought this would work, and got NHRA to use it, deserves the DARWIN AWARD for all time, along with the ones who "bought it."

Just my 2-cents...


Bill (a not-very-complex guy)

[Evan Smith]

Dedman,

I think you may have misunderstood me. NHRA does indeed have some fine people who are skilled and very good at what they do. However, there are so many layers at NHRA and we found it very difficult anything past all the layers. Many of the rules and regulations were made long before many of the performance and safety enhancements and the rulebook has not changed with the times.

Evan

[Mark Yacavone]

Sure, a given SBC in a Corvette, which presents less frontal area, more efficient aerodynamics, and has better weight distribution because of engine setback, may perform better than that same engine in a Chevelle hardtop....... but the fact is, the combinations are endless, and trying to level the playing field between the myriad combinations using this method is a task that would never be finished, and in the meantime creates more problems than it solves.






Bill, Seems you are arguing for, and against ,in the same paragraph

Fact is, there are big differences in the index vs. weight, between the the middle classes and the lower ones. Powerglide vs 4 speed etc.
NHRA has gotten better about doing this since the early days of the AHFS ( The Billy Lynn rule...factoring 2 dr 79 Malibu's and not the 2 dr Olds Cutlass and Pontiac Le Mans, which essentially is the same car)
Now atleast they combine the 305 Camaros with the Firebirds and vice versa, as they should be.
It hast to be done correctly by someone who knows what he's looking at . You can't just all of a sudden combine 350 Novas with Camaros because a guy speaks out against NHRA.
Nothing wrong with factoring individual combos , if done correctly.

[bill dedman]

Mark,
I apologize for the murky writing; I can see (upon re-reading) that my post did indeed, seem to be beating both drums simultaneously, but what I MEANT was contained in the part that said, "but the fact is, the combinations are endless, and trying to level the playing field between the myriad combinations using this method is a task that would never be finished, and in the meantime creates more problems than it solves."

That was the crux of my argument.

To think that the present-day NHRA will beat the bushes to find a knowledgeable individual (or, several) who can perform this task of separating cars' classification by examining their performace potential through a "microscope," is to dream the impossible dream.

In case you haven't noticed, whoever is in CHARGE there doesn't CARE... and, they proved it first with the Mustang factoring debacle, and now have added insult to injury with the Dodge factors.

My point was, if it can't be done "right" (and, I don't think it can, given what we have to work with in terms of NHRA's attitude, demeanor, and analytical capabilities, such as they are) then, it shouldn't be done AT ALL.

Return the factors on cars of varying body types to their original, across-the-board numbers and forget the situations like Fred Henson's mistake... or, move ALL the Street Hemis, regardless of chassis, onto that 470hp pedastal...

What they have now makes NO sense at all...

Thanks for listening.

Bill

[Alan Roehrich]

The guys who were in charge of all of that are no longer in charge of any of it.

There are obvious reasons engines may be factored differently in different cars. Easy example, one we run personally, the 427/425 Chevy. In a Camaro, you get cold air (you'll get various opinions as to whether or not it works), in a Chevelle or an Impala, you do not. The same applies to the 396 engines for that year. But it is not just the cold air, but also wheelbase and suspension differences, as well as aerodynamics.

Evan is correct, the SRAC made suggestions, many of them solicited from the racers and forwarded to NHRA by the SRAC on behalf of the racers. All that was gotten for the trouble and effort was that the AHFS was removed from people who know Stock and Super Stock, and passed out to Glendora. A bad problem will now become much worse. And NHRA will never say who is responsible or where they are, either.

As far as the original subject of this thread, I've never met the man, that I am aware of, but I see no reason to do anything but say he's a smart man. It is a failing of NHRA that such a soft factor exists to begin with, and that nothing has been done about it. There will be smart people who find such combinations and make them run. It is the job of NHRA to make sure that it gets fixed in a timely manner.