Once again a bogus combination

[Monte Howard]

Some of you want to argue about the 98 LT-1 and Rack & Pinion,Come on,That is small compared to the lastest.

Rack and Pinion / LT-1,I would trade that for the Nice little open rules to do what ever you like to the rear suspension,nice little Intake and Oil Pan(Milodon).

I would also trade that Rack and Pinion 98 LT-1 deal for a BLOWER.

My Stocker was crushed for years by the new Camaro's and Firebird's.

Now it will be by the DP.

I was told years ago by NHRA Deal with it.

New cars are neat,but not as neat as the old muscle cars and what NHRA is doing is wrong.

The thing I love about Stock and Super Stock is going to the U.S Nationals and having a chance to win, even a chance to beat the big HITTERS,NHRA is taking that away from alot of us now.

Going to the Nationals and watching Paul Adams and Jimmy Bridges Heads-UP,Watching all the Big Block Mopar's and Chevy's go at it in A/SA -C/SA
Thats what life is all about my friends and I hope they dont ruin that.

[SS Engine Guy]

Originally Posted by hemidup

Bogus HP factors or not, I still haven't seen where the new Challenger's or Mustang's have dominated anywhere. Have you?

Sure have seen it. Whatever class they have been entered into. Because of the hp rating and that alone. Put 50 on them or take 50 off their competition and see where they fall.
As the last few pages attest to, these aren't the only combos that have ever been soft.

And please don't take this as an attack on anyone who is running one of these combos. I think it is a smart move. I just don't think that making a killer combo with a pencil says much for the way our rules are being enforced.

By the way...... anybody know what taking those 3 tenths away accomplished?

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Dean Roberts

Clay, we are not wanting to compare, we are comparing because it is just as blatant as the current cars everyone is crying about. But those crying about teh Cj and DP cars won't admit it. Any manufacturer will get away with whatever it can and it is the sanctioning bodies job to keep it all fair. It doesn't matter what the form of racing is, and it's found in all auto racing.

How could go to the dealer and buy a car that didn't exist? Which is the case with the '98 F-body with an LT1. Also, crossbreeding parts is illegal, yet the Pinto rack is legal in a GM car. How do you explain NHRA allowing that? It is a performance advantage because a Pinto rack is lighter than the stock GM setup and removing nose weight is worth a ton in a Stocker. We all want to know why the3 GM racers aren't screaming on the Internet for over a year about that?

Yeah, you are "wanting to compare", you are not "comparing", because you are not making a valid comparison, by any stretch. A hand grenade is closer to an M-80 than one of these crate motor cars is to a 98 LT-1 F body.

Removing nose weight isn't worth a ton in a stocker. I'm not saying a Pinto rack should be legal.

The LT-1 was already a legal engine, certified by the EPA for street use in a production vehicle for sale to the general public. Yes, technically you could make a case that a 98 LT-1 F body is a "paper car".

So what is a car that is sold unassembled, no engine, no transmission, and no rear end? And classed with an engine or engines that are not certified for safety or emissions, or installed in a street driven production vehicle, ever? A "thin air car"?

What you REALLY want to know is why some people don't think two wrongs make a right.

I posted this in another thread, and I noticed that no one has ever addressed it:

If you want the new cars, why is it so important that they be in classes where they have such a huge advantage over other cars? Seriously, why is it necessary to just absolutely kill cars already racing? Why CAN'T they be in their own class? Why is it that it would be wrong for NHRA to learn a lesson from the past, and put these cars in a class by themselves, until the factors get reasonable, just like they eventually did with the FI cars? They'll go just as fast as they are now, with the exact same parts, and the exact same cash outlay. Why is it necessary to punish current combinations to add new cars? There would be little or no argument about any of this if the new cars had their own classes. Is it really necessary to give them 3 tenths to show, and 3 tenths to hold, over other racers, just to get them to race? Is it some sort of secret requirement that they be so dominant, just to get people to buy them and race them? Is that what we need to draw "new participants"? Do we REALLY need to do this just to get people to race? If we do, there's no hope for class racing, period. Not if this is what it will be reduced to.

[Wayne Kerr]

Let's just say that the CJ's and DP's have spoiled AA/S thru G/S and AA/SA thru G/SA
that's 16 classes correct?
Now I would like to ask if you compete in one of these classes?
Do you have the quickest car in the country in your respective class?
In my opinion there are 16 people in the country that have a legitimate complaint.
Does it matter whether you are beaten by a CJ or DP or just a faster car?

I needed to take some of the heat off of poor Jeff T.

Flame on.
See you at the races,
Wayne Kerr

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Wayne Kerr

Let's just say that the CJ's and DP's have spoiled AA/S thru G/S and AA/SA thru G/SA
that's 16 classes correct?
1. Now I would like to ask if you compete in one of these classes?
2. Do you have the quickest car in the country in your respective class?
3. In my opinion there are 16 people in the country that have a legitimate complaint.
4. Does it matter whether you are beaten by a CJ or DP or just a faster car?

I needed to take some of the heat off of poor Jeff T.

Flame on.
See you at the races,
Wayne Kerr

1. Yes, we do, 69 Camaro 427/425, A/SA and AA/SA.

2. No. Never claimed to. Still thrashing on it though.

3. That's your opinion. But, with respect, it does not consider other facts (see below).

4. There's a huge difference between being beaten by an established, correctly factored combination that someone has worked on for a few years to make run, and getting stomped by an improperly factored car that has the field covered by 5 tenths out of the box.

3a. The problem with your opinion is that most of the fastest cars in a given class do not travel everywhere, so people not in their division don't have to race them. Whereas these new cars are in every division. Example: Until the new cars came out, odds are the fastest AA/SA car was probably either DeArmond or Sorenson (with due respect to John Shaul and others). So AA/SA cars east of the Mississippi weren't likely to face the fastest AA/SA car in the country. But now they are likely to face a car far faster than either of those two. No doubt there are other very fast "older" AA/SA (and A/SA) cars in the country, Shaul, Meile, Calabro/Fasano, Couris, Pendarvis, Ficacci, DeFrank, Koppien, and a few others. But you could just about count all of those guys on two hands. If you add in the new cars being built, that figure more than doubles, and may even triple. That dramatically increases the odds of heads up races in those two classes, meaning the average guy in those classes with an older car is far more likely to run into a heads up race they can't win. Especially when the very fast older cars can't win in most cases facing a "new car", either.

It's not just about having the fastest car in the class in the country, it is at least just as much about having a reasonable chance to make a race of a heads up race, if you have a reasonably competitive car. If you've got a car that runs 1.0 or so under the new indexes, it's a powerful slap in the face to not have a chance in a heads up race in final eliminations. If you had a 1.0 under car, and got down to say 4 cars, and got beat by a new car that has you covered by 3 tenths, that's a pretty bitter pill to swallow if you've been working on your car and spending money on it for 5 or 10 years.


Flame? Why? And it is not the individual racers that anyone has a beef with, it's NHRA.

[Jeff Lee]

Hear my rant....I have made it clear these late model Challenger DP / CJ cars should be SS cars (and no sense re-hashing the same old arguments about not even available for public use).
But this is the same NHRA that would not allow a superseded carb for my AMC. I have provided document after document to show it legitimacy. IHRA accepted it. NHRA's response was it appeared legit but after all the fiasco over the FOMOCO FE allowances, didn't want to go down that road again.
So in essence, NHRA admits the FE issues are a problem, won't fix them because they're in place, and others get to race against their "bogus" parts.
But in truth, that's OK. Why? Because I new what I had for parts when I built my car and I knew what my competitors also had. It was no mystery to me. Would I like to even the odds? Sure. But it doesn't appear likely.
But, and that's a BIG BUT, when one builds a car, factors in his potential competition, even looks into a crystal ball and tries to imagine what the OEM may provide in the future, NOBODY would have ever imagined NHRA would allow vehicles and drive trains that have not now (or ever) been allowed for public consumption.
So in effect, as mention by Alan, SS Engine Guy and numerous others, NHRA has flat "blown away" any semblance of a level playing field with the allowance of these crate engines...make that crate, paper; call it what you want vehicles. It matters not at all what the odds are in facing one of these vehicles in actual competition. The fact is, you spend your hard earned dollars traveling and entering races and this is a "performance based class" so many of us race with expectations (after hard work) of winning class and setting records. Loosing on a fair and level playing field is one thing and often times it's the impetus that drives us to further refine our cars.
But to have a top notch car that looses by a half-second to a paper car will take the wind out of your sales, in a hurry.
The LT-1 / LS-1 is an issue...an old issue. It was corrected so it's not a debate anymore.
And for those that seem to believe there isn't the potential for a half-second romp on the competition, pay attention to the MPH numbers. As I've said before, these CJ's and DP's (primarily the CJ's so far) either have throttle stops (or some electronic version) or are horribly inefficient race cars. There's 10+ years in AHFS penalties in these cars.

[dwydendorf]

As a loyal Ford racer I have been looking upon this whole thread with a little amusement because finally the shoe is on the other foot for a change. While I don't want to rub too much salt in your wounds, if many of you claim this is about fairness instead of brand loyality, where were your complaints when the new Camaros and Firebirds were dominant? I started racing back in the early 1970"s and Killer cars were around then, just the same as they are now. You claim that the mismatch is greater now but that is not true. There were always cars that had a half second advantage on other cars in their class- nothing new there. What is new is that GM is struggling as of late and the U.S. Government is watching over GM. The reason I mention this is because NHRA cannot look to GM for some of the perks that have plentiful in the past. If you add up the dollars that NHRA saves by having a car manufacturer provide Cars and Trucks to NHRA you can understand why it is good not to make Ford angry. That somehow changes the political structure at NHRA and all of a sudden makes Ford the one favorable to NHRA. Like it or not, its politics, and has nothing to do with Republicans and Democrats. Now if you think that NHRA is going to cater to a handful of whiny Stock and Super Stock Racers over trying not to piss off Ford you are mistaken. Most racers can't stick together enough to leverage any power against NHRA, and if the truth is known they would probably want to get rid of us before that happens. With that being said what are you going to do about it? I was talking to a well noted racer who just had his class invaded by one of the new cars that is going as fast if not faster than he is. I asked him what he was going to do? He said I will continue to do my own thing just like I allways have, and not worry about what they are doing. I said I was also going to do the same There have been two times that I have won class at the U.S. Nationals that I shouldn't have. Both times the other cars were much faster than me but I won. I won't embarass those racers by filling in the details, but the bottom line is if you don't show up and do your own thing, you can't win.

[Jack McCarthy]

greg...tell andrew i get a pass in it too... im just a station wagon kinda guy

ken > if you with your a/sa car cant see the snowball rolling at you im sure me pointing it out aint gonna help...

as far as im concerned if i have no chance to win class or a heads up race then i might just as well run brackets. just so happens that currently i have this killer caddy in my class and relish opportunities to race him and try to get him hp'ed into t/sa so i can return to the top of the class -or damn close (clayton). i am glad no new bogus paper car will ever be built for u/sa

you will never outrun the mustang or the mopar, you will never win class again and that is a crying shame > you have a great car and one the spectators love to see race especially in a showdown with a 69 camaro... best class race i ever saw was hawk and lil jimmy at indy !

i believe that the rampant changes in the rules have bastardized the class i grew up in and dearly love... i have paid NHRA my membership dues for 36 years for them to protect the integrity of my class... and ive been screwed. never again will a smart guy from sedalia missouri be able to use his intelligence not his wallet to build a car to be #1 qualifier at indy... it will be a mustang or a mopar for the foreseeable future.

thats what i meant by it has ruined the class

just my opinion, and like everyone knows we all think ours is right.
captain jack

[Ken Miele]

Jack,

Never say never. I don't think anybody 10 years ago would have believed that these combo's would have ever been built. The same logic should be applied when it comes to being able to run with these new combo's. To just lay down and die is not my way. I have been out run by many combo's over the years and at times told myself I would never be able to run with these guys. As the years went on, things changed and I was able to catch up. One thing life has taught me, nothing stays the same. GM had there day in the sun, now the sun shines on Ford and Chrysler.

You can throw the towel in, I will not. Yeah I see the snowball, it rolled over me in the 80's, 90's and its about to get me again, so what. I have never even come close to qualifying number one, but I have won the eliminator few times. As far as I am concerned give me a win over number one anytime. And for me not ever wining class again, don't bet on it

And as far having the intelligence to build the number one qualifier. The intelligence needed is to fine the softest combo in the books. Today's technology is available to most along with building techniques.

I do not think there would be to much of an uproar if the new combo's were in W Stock, with all do respect to the racers that run that class.

Jack, I do agree on your take about opinions, but it does make for some interesting perspectives.

[Jack McCarthy]

ken it is nice to exchange opposing opinions on this forum with someone else who obviously loves the sport, can speak eloquently, and not get bent out of shape when someone doesnt agree with them...

good luck with the paper cars, ill be pulling for you (unless your running irvin johns i still owe him too many favors) !!

jack mccarthy