Factory Showdown at INDY

[C and W Racing]

Originally Posted by Ed Wright

That's where they belong, all the time.

They run in AAA, AA, and BB. How many of the older cars are in those classes ?
Chuck

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by C and W Racing

They run in AAA, AA, and BB. How many of the older cars are in those classes ?
Chuck

In SS most of them have gotten no HP. Those are the ones I care about. Drag packs running on 2 barrels and NA Mustangs with bogus HP rated, de-factored crate engines.
Your talking about blown Mustangs. Those aren't the only bogus underrated engines.

[KRatcliff]

Originally Posted by GUMP

Were emission controls ever required on a Stocker? When Chevrolet built the 427 Corvettes and Camaros they were aimed at racing. They were also cutting edge for their time. Not your average daily driver!




Which rule book are you reading? Lot's of Stockers have been built from non VIN cars.




I said it a long time ago on here, the AHFS will sort these cars out over time. A new car should be faster than an old car. Why would the factories take a backwards step? Who would buy a slow car from them? I am glad that the factories have come back to Class racing.

Ok, lets work with a little better reading comprehension this time. I clearly stated "His Corvette has a VIN and met emission standards at the time it was introduced. None of the factory ringers could meet emission standards at the time they were introduced with their compression ratios, throttle bodies, camshaft lifts, etc...."

Translation....well hell, it is pretty clear the way I wrote it. It wasn't written in the manner you attempted to twist it. Even the examples you listed met the emission standards at the time they were introduced. Try again.

The rule book I read is the NHRA (and IHRA when I race there). I also read the stocker classification guides. Name one car before the Mustangs in 2008 and the Dragpaks in 2009 that were allowed in the guide that weren't cars with a VIN. Mebbe you can name one. I am curious to know. All cars I am aware of that didn't come with VIN went into Superstock ie: Hemi Darts & Cudas. Building a wrecked car or a salvaged car as a Stocker isn't the same as a manufacturer introducing it to the NHRA to be placed in the guide.

Let the AHFS sort them out in their own class. There are several of the factory ringers that are in the lower classes slowly causing havoc on their way up. But as I said before, if you get satisfaction out of winning that way then more power to you.

It does nothing for me.

[boster]

Kevin , I think you are wrong on the 08 mustang engines . You can buy the same engine in a 08 stocker for your street car and it will pass emissions with headers and a street legal exhaust and it came in a GT500 from the factory. It is a true factory engine that anyone can buy from ford and but in their car .

Now the Copo engine might be different from the spec I have seen

Jeff , leave the little guy alone , his ego bruises easily

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by KRatcliff

Ok, lets work with a little better reading comprehension this time. I clearly stated "His Corvette has a VIN and met emission standards at the time it was introduced. None of the factory ringers could meet emission standards at the time they were introduced with their compression ratios, throttle bodies, camshaft lifts, etc...."

I'm not sure that reading comprehension is my issue, but, I guess you could be right. The point that I was trying to make is that I didn't know that those guidelines had ever been in the rule book. Again I could be wrong. But, I race by todays rules and the new factory cars are legal.

The rule book I read is the NHRA (and IHRA when I race there). I also read the stocker classification guides. Name one car before the Mustangs in 2008 and the Dragpaks in 2009 that were allowed in the guide that weren't cars with a VIN. Mebbe you can name one. I am curious to know. All cars I am aware of that didn't come with VIN went into Superstock ie: Hemi Darts & Cudas. Building a wrecked car or a salvaged car as a Stocker isn't the same as a manufacturer introducing it to the NHRA to be placed in the guide.

That's easy. The 1998 LT1 Firebird that you race. By your own definition it doesn't meet your rules. It was never built so it could never get a VIN or pass emissions. I have built three 1998 LT1 cars. They are a lot of fun. They are in the guide. So, they are legal.

Let the AHFS sort them out in their own class. There are several of the factory ringers that are in the lower classes slowly causing havoc on their way up. But as I said before, if you get satisfaction out of winning that way then more power to you.

I agree. At the time that I purchased my first LT1 in 1995 I did so because it looked like the best new car combination available. It turned out to be a great combination. I feel the same way about the new cars. My Formula is getting pretty old, so I am moving on to something new.

[KRatcliff]

The point of the emmissions/VIN comment is that it isn't just a technology advancement that is making these factory ringers more competitive than the cars that have been accepted in the guide up to their release. It is that the factories leaned on the NHRA to accept cars to compete with all the other stockers that have components that wouldn't function on the street. That is a stocker in my opinion and it also meets the intent of the rules. Anything beyond that would be factory experimental or a super stocker which is a natural extension of a stocker.

My 1998 LT1 example you are using is weak at best. The engine did meet those emission standards and is no different than any that were in thousands of cars before. There is zero performance advantage of a 1998 over a 1997 or beyond. Can you say that about these new cars? Is there any advantage over their street versions? More compression? Bigger blowers (more compression)? More radical camshafts? Larger throttle bodies?

Yes, the new cars are in the guide. Enjoy your ride. I am sure it will be nice and fast. You shouldn't have to sweat qualifying at Indy or any heads up matches unless it is another of the newer cars. Be careful of what you wish for because you may actually get it. The game you are playing is way more expensive than the one I am.

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by KRatcliff

The point of the emmissions/VIN comment is that it isn't just a technology advancement that is making these factory ringers more competitive than the cars that have been accepted in the guide up to their release. It is that the factories leaned on the NHRA to accept cars to compete with all the other stockers that have components that wouldn't function on the street. That is a stocker in my opinion and it also meets the intent of the rules. Anything beyond that would be factory experimental or a super stocker which is a natural extension of a stocker.

On this we are pretty much in agreement. But if the emissions stuff hadn't started to be a factor in 1971. Do you think that the factories wouldn't have continued to push the limits? Pontiac was working on the RA V, Buick on the Stage 2, etc.

My 1998 LT1 example you are using is weak at best. The engine did meet those emission standards and is no different than any that were in thousands of cars before. There is zero performance advantage of a 1998 over a 1997 or beyond. Can you say that about these new cars? Is there any advantage over their street versions? More compression? Bigger blowers (more compression)? More radical camshafts? Larger throttle bodies?

You asked for an example of a car without a VIN. As far as performance goes you are preaching to the choir. Of course until recently the LT1 caught as much flack as the new cars on this forum. Funny how things change!

Yes, the new cars are in the guide. Enjoy your ride. I am sure it will be nice and fast. You shouldn't have to sweat qualifying at Indy or any heads up matches unless it is another of the newer cars. Be careful of what you wish for because you may actually get it. The game you are playing is way more expensive than the one I am.

You obviously don't know me. I love to run heads-up and am most often the under dog. We ran a very good Top Stock series in IHRA Division 9 for a couple of years. Anyone who raced with us will tell you that it was fair and fun. Why do you think I am building a B/SA car? I like the idea of some of the other races for the COPO. If I run it in Class it will be in CC or above. Which should be safe for the vast majority of the older cars.

About four years ago I wished for a COPO..........

[KRatcliff]

You are right. I don't know anybody named Gump. Best of luck in your racing.

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by KRatcliff

You are right. I don't know anybody named Gump. Best of luck in your racing.

Sorry, I thought you new who I was.

Daren Poole-Adams (Gizmo on LS1tech)

Best of luck to you too.

[Bruce Noland]

Originally Posted by JHeath

I am wondering, if Chevrolet gave Bruce Noland a new COPO Camaro, would he race it?

The answer is No! I can buy one if I wanted but I'm not as brand-sick as some on this board.

Chuck, Gump - a racer would have to be a time traveler to enjoy the same benefits/gifts that the New cars are receiving. This does not include the bogus factors that you enjoy. I know most people don't want to be known for exploiting other racers for their own personal gain. But that is what you are doing with the assistance from nhra of course. And that makes everything all better.