Stockers....buttons.....check This Out

Originally Posted by Bernie Cunningham

tgriffith, a regular poster on this site, I have now idea how you've come up with that much 'bunk' in one post !!!!!

It doesn't matter whether your footbraking or using a button in a slower car, the bottom yellow is the GO, unless you need to anticipate it with a slower car, it makes no difference!

I believe you are wrong about slow cars that can't win, check out the foot braking Langs for instance! They, and a bunch more racers got screwed a fews years back when all of the whiny boys got deep staging eliminated. Sounds like the same 'cry for help' with this subject !!!!!

Are you implying that Top Fuel has an outcome in a Stk/SS race that's deep into eliminations? Good God man.

If you don't have your car set for react by the time eliminations come around, I'm sorry, your not paying enough attention to detail, 'quityasnivlin'

Haven't you figured it out, after all these years of racing, just what nightime will do to your reaction yet ??? We now have LED's that changed all of those problems, unless ya still got one in your head.

Do you really think that a button is being adjusted all the time? Most button racers never adjust it, the same one stay's in the car from race to race. The biggest change made on a daily basis is starting line RPM, nothing more and nothing less. I reckon your dumb-founded here but I will agree that the Five O button is BS (include the obvious cheater button, the AX.) Your also polluting the argument with racers that blind the tree, a whole nother subject.

I would love to see your testing results, just how scientific are they, are you a robot that can duplicate a react and tell yourself the truth as to what you just did with weather and track changes etc.????

Thank you for agreeing on the 'no cheaters' part. That's a moot point.

I think you validated the use of two steps in your last sentence, if you cant't keep the starting line RPM's consistent and the rest of the variables, how the hell are ya gonna get any better at what you do and know what is making a difference??

We race because it's a CONTEST, repeat a CONTEST, we try to be the best ya can be, whether your setting records or trying to win the race, if you don't understand the big picture you'll never get it. Winners in the ND talk about it all the time !!

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TWO STEPS AND BUTTONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

Whoa ! that's enough of that ! B

Well Said Bernie

Todd Hoven
1035 NHRA STK

[jdfpam]

Anyone who says that this isn't an important issue, just take a look at how many views are on this thread!!!
No matter what side you are on for this issue, don't forget to vote. Be sure to include your NHRA membership number and car number. That is what this thread was started for.

1- Eliminate the use of buttons and two-steps in Stock Eliminator

2- Allow the use of buttons and two-steps as pedal activated only

An approved button would still be permitted in either case for use with NHRA acceptable line-locks only.

Racers are asked to submit their opinions to racerinput@nhra.com.


Going racing now, good luck to everyone else going , this is a very busy weekend.

Jeff Day

[tgriffith]

Bernie......you have enjoyed a great deal of success in stock,,,,and your racing what???? isnt that a 2 stepped ..button leaving A or B /FIA car???.....Just tell the truth....Im rite and you know it,,,,its a hell of an advantage,,,,rite???

but for fun ,,I`ll address your remarks ,,one by one

on the flash issue,,,,,slow cars dont have that option,,,you cant leave between the lights on something you cant see,,

on the slow cars winners,,,your rite,,,,slow cars can win but it takes nearly a race god just to go rounds in cars that cant use the flash method,,,,I was one of the ones that got bitch slapped by the "no deeping" rules,,,,,and what pisses me off to no end is,,,,,a VERY GOOD reliable source told me why deeping got banned-------it was racers USING THE FLASH METHOD got really upset when looking for their lite to come on being distracted by their opponents top lite going out ,,,,,,causing them to be lost on the tree for a split second,,,,,so basically,,,Im still pissed about you keeping your 2 step and I cant deep stage,,,,,,as fast cars dont have enough advantage,,,,lets give them a little more

on the top fuel thing,,,,havent you ever run behind top fuels and noticed that cars tend to run off for the first few runs,,,,,just watch,,,whether its traction,,,air quailty or what ever,,,,yes it does make a difference

on the LED issue,,,I promise you,,,I make more run down a dragstrip in a 2 months than you make all year,,,,I run multiple cars,,in multiple classes,,,,,and Yes there is still a difference in the led`s,,,,,,,while there not as large as their incadesent brothers,,,,,there are differences,,,,,the one which was puzzling was the loss of about .010 to .015 in the dark,,,,,which doesnt make sense,,,so I did some research ,,,,I wanted to understand why,,,,,,,,was it me?? Am I tired???,,Is it immediate traction??,,,nope ,,,none of the above,,,,,and its not just me,,,,its every driver I know that I would think be quailfied to ask,,,,,and its at every track I visit...takes some balls to have a .005 lite and come back next round and roll .010 out of a delay box...rite??? so I had to find out why,,,I even call an eye doctor I know and he claimed it was the "deer in the headlite" effect,,,I think that one was full of ****,,,,But I did find out eventually find out why,,

on the testing of a car deal,,,,I also promise you I own the most consistent car on the planet,,,and its a great test mule because of this,,,,now I will give you this ,,it isnt a stocker,,,and from my limited experience in a stocker,,,,I do understand that 9 inch tires do react different and each combo does react different to the same change,,,,,so what does tire pressure do to a fast stocker????? does it slow it down??? ,,,just how much??? does it react different??? if your looking to kill RT and then it hooks better,,,what then......not nearly as simple as changing RPM with a dial,,,rite??


My big beef with the whole issue is every freaking rule is made seem to help the faster cars just a little bit more,,,,,stock was designed to be an entry level class where a guy in a pinto could build car in his garage and be competitive,,,,that day is gone,,,,,,the store bought stockers are here to stay,,,,

You have 10% of the racers winning 90%,,,,maybe that will always remain true,, who knows,,,what never ceases to amaze me is that the other 90% are off in LA-LA land when these BS rule perversions get introduced and then used,,,,,I mean, if a 2 step is legal on a car ,,,,and Im sure someone got it thru cause they claimed their car came with it,,,,they just lowered it,,,THEN it should be legal for me to use my windshield wiper delay to operate my line locks,,,,,,SAME THING,,,,,and then if one can use an aftermarket 2 step instead of the factory computerized rev limiter,,,,,,then why can I add a digital delay box to my windshield wipers that now operates my line lock,,,,,SAME THING

[tgriffith]

I also want to add to that long winded reply that ,,where the footers are at a real disadvantage is traveling,,,,In Ihra,,you get 2 shots,,,at a track you have never been,,in some extreme conditions,,,,,here is where the 2 steppers are holding nearly all the cards,,,,after racers get going rounds,,,well the cream rises to the top and if a few of the footers have survived,,,they do well,,,,,its that first few rounds that tough

[Joe Demarais]

Well, If Buttons And 2 Steps Don't Make Much Difference, Then There Shouldn't Be Any Problem To Get Rid Of Them, And That In Turn Will Get Rid Of All The Bitching!!!!!
Joe Demarais

[Michael Beard]

While I don't agree with Tim that a 2step combination is "unbeatable", some of his points have merit.

He also has plenty of credibility, as a former NHRA National Sportsman champ, and #2 in IHRA Stock a few years after that with a couple of deep-staged cars, BTW. I will guarantee you that Tim would not have won nearly as many races with the Cavalier without deep staging. That topic is marginally tied in with this one, since the sanctioning bodies did away with one driving option but retained another.

I've raced with Tim numerous times, and he's not kidding. His car is about the deadliest thing I've ever seen. It's extrememly rare for that car to move a full number.
If he ever puts a driver in it... LOL j/k

Tim, I think there were probably far more people that got deep-staging eliminated not because of someone flash racing, but because they don't understand Autostart, so they thought that they were getting screwed somehow. When a handful of idiots (on both sides) wanted to start playing games, it made it easy for NHRA to use it as an excuse to pull the plug. Had Compulink implemented the "D" system that has been discussed elsewhere, it would've been a moot point.

Also off-topic, but I'm really surprised that some people haven't acknowledged that track conditions change after the Pros run! That's pretty basic stuff, although different cars can react differently to it. Slow cars tend to slow, almost like running in bubble gum. Running an 11-sec car right after Pro Stock, you'd pick up several numbers. Then again, I don't envy the NHRA guys having to run on the track conditions I've seen on TV, or read about in Patsy's reports. I've never seen an IHRA track -- even "one of them there hard ta find" Divisional tracks -- get that bad. (and even more off-topic, why is it that when IHRA had Virginia Motorsports Park, Pro Mods and Pro Stockers could get down the track, and then when NHRA comes back to the place it becomes a skating rink again?)

Tim - I think you've singled out just one component as to why Stock is going the way it is. You're also seeing a lot more high-classed cars because they get to chase. The good drivers have figured out just how much of an advantage being fast is. I don't feel that 2steps are *as* much of a factor as you do, but they are an ingredient that makes it that much easier.

Before y'all get into the "if you think they're do good, get one" argument -- that's not what it's about. You could apply that argument to "Why SS needs delay boxes", and the same argument failed in the defense of deep staging. (although I feel that the elimination of deep staging had a bigger impact on the sport than either decision on 2-steps will)

>> It doesn't matter whether your footbraking or using a button in a slower car, the bottom yellow is the GO

The discussion isn't about when to leave, but rather adjustability and repeatedbility.

>> The biggest change made on a daily basis is starting line RPM

That's what Tim was talking about. It is a repeatable and measureable change.

>> IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TWO STEPS AND BUTTONS !

So, it wouldn't hurt if they were eliminated. :-)

Off-topic one last time... Eric Cabral is a bad dude with a stick! I was on the receiving end at Epping a couple years ago!

[Stock1528]

RIGHT ON ERIC!!!! I COULDNT AGREE MORE!!!! Stop bitchin and start drivin. Whats next? You have to race in reverse and hit the tree out of ur rear/sideview mirror, or r u guys guna bitch and have those taken away too??? The same guys are going to win and thats for one reason only, SEATTIME. Nothing can replace seattime so stop typin, so you can rest ur fingers for a quicker reaction off the button It's like anythin in life, some people have it, and some people dont. Dont knock the people that do b/c ur jealous that they win all the time. Go ahead and check my credentials people im sure u will. Jesus its like high school.

Justin Picillo
I/SA '72 Chevelle

[Michael Beard]

With at least 5 national or world champions involved in this post, I don't think any of them are "jealous" of anything. I *do* hear some "b*tching", but it's only coming from people who can't seem to add anything logical to the debate.

It doesn't matter to me *which* side of the fence anyone is on, as long as they can articulate something substantive to support their opinion. While we agree to disagree, I respect Bernie for actually adding to the conversation!

You're right. "BECAUSE!" really is 'high school'!

[Stock1528]

I'm not on here to throw stones at any one particular person. These world champions that you speak of in NHRA, how many of them use 2 Steps? hhhmmm fletcher, biondo, helms, randy wilkes, bertozzi. those arent the guys im sayin r jealous. its the ones that dont win and spend too much time complaining and not out there practicing trying to become better racers. and i dont agree that 2 steps are even an advantage. look at mike iacono, jegs all star winner, ron morehead, well know, very talented superstock racer, tom boucher, indy winner and IHRA north american nationals winner, they all footbrake. its not the footbrakin or the 2 steps that r the big issue here, its that ppl r never goin to be satisfied no matter what changes are made or arent made. leave it the way it is and lets all just go out and race and have fun

Justin Picillo
I/SA '72 chevelle

Might Be A Dum Question But It Seems No One Really Has A Good Reason For Nhra To Eliminate The Use Of A Button.as Long As It Is Not Hooked Up To The Line-lock Whats The Problem??you Still Have To Release The Brake Pedal Don't You?the Same Racers Who Won Going Deep Are Still Winning...and The Ones That Are Using A Button Will Continue To Win,with Or Without So Thats The Point????lets Race

Joe Mocci