Brother, Can You Spare a "Dime"?

Dwight Southerland · 07-09-2011, 11:35 AM

This one may not be a super cheap build, but it could surely be done without having to hock your old lady to pay for it.

1973-74 Pontiac 350 2-bbl/150 & 170/210

This engine has the exact same specs except for the 2-bbl as the engine in Bill Rink's Ventura GTO a few years back that got factored to 276 as a 4-bbl. The 2-bbl may slow it down, but I don't see 66 hp difference in classification. In a 15 lb. break class, 66 hp is 1000 lb! The potential of the engine is proven, just needs someone to try it. Plus, this engine is available with a 4-speed in a Ventura, Firebird or LeMans. Follow Billy's recipe for smart engine building and you have a competitor!

Jack Matyas · 07-09-2011, 02:00 PM

Dwight - Anyone with big enough kahonas to build this combo I can help as I have every single engine part needed and they can be had thru a combined effort with me .These parts are just sitting so they might as well be used .................

Mark Yacavone · 07-09-2011, 03:40 PM

I don't know about that one.
Same carb as a 305 SBC @180 hp. Trying to feed a 350 with it ?
Wouldn't want a Ventura. Too much money to start .If it doesn't work ,what are you going to do with it? The GTO is ruined, except for SS.
Firebird is the best option as a 74 . Plenty of other places to go there, but again, too much money.
That leaves the 74 Lemans. Anybody seen one lately? All those old cars are about gone around here. They didn't rust away, but when the economy tanked and scrap went up, anything not running got hauled in, chipped up . LOL

Billy Nees · 07-09-2011, 04:34 PM

I'd do the Buick. Bigger carb, 5HP less but I do think, based on history, the Pontiac could be a player if you went with it's strengths and put it in a heavy body for T and U.

Tod Lane · 07-09-2011, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

This one may not be a super cheap build, but it could surely be done without having to hock your old lady to pay for it.

1973-74 Pontiac 350 2-bbl/150 & 170/210

This engine has the exact same specs except for the 2-bbl as the engine in Bill Rink's Ventura GTO a few years back that got factored to 276 as a 4-bbl. The 2-bbl may slow it down, but I don't see 66 hp difference in classification. In a 15 lb. break class, 66 hp is 1000 lb! The potential of the engine is proven, just needs someone to try it. Plus, this engine is available with a 4-speed in a Ventura, Firebird or LeMans. Follow Billy's recipe for smart engine building and you have a competitor!

Cool combo, but can I hock the old lady anyway?

Dwight Southerland · 07-09-2011, 11:37 PM

Mark -
I thought part of the premise of this was not the cost of the car?!? Did you change the rule because you don't agree?

Billy -
The Buick might be a better choice, but the Pontiac has more versatilty. Buick didn't build an F body and they didn't offer their 350 with a 4-speed. The carb is negligible; it's the same size as the one on 350 Chevs that are rated 20 more.

Tod -
Okay with me, if you can find a taker.

Mark Yacavone · 07-10-2011, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Mark -
I thought part of the premise of this was not the cost of the car?!? Did you change the rule because you don't agree?

.

Not at all, Dwight. I just think you'd have to consider the body into the equation.
What's the point of using ,say a 230 6 cylinder, if you need a 69 Camaro convertible to make it work?
You know how Paul Sr. says: " I know one ting, Ya gotta have a motah to build a motah cycle" ?
Well, ya gotta have a cheap body to build a cheap stocker.

Bobby Zlatkin · 07-10-2011, 03:25 AM

The difference between a SBC 350 2 bbl. (230) and a 4 bbl. (287) is 57 HP and the only difference is the carb. Everything else is the same. Can that be worth 57 HP?

I know, Mark is going to say, yes.

And look at all the different bodies those two combos are avalabile in.

Dwight Southerland · 07-10-2011, 08:47 AM

From Billy's original post on the other thread: "Billy Nees here, Dwight Southerland and I are going to share a few combos that we feel could be built for $5000 or less (or more) if you already have a body."

That was the position I was starting from. I understand and agree with you that the cost of the car is a factor that cannot be ignored, but I want to raise the awareness of racers and potential racers that there are lots of opportunities. Some combinations are better than others, some are easier to find than others and there is always the instance of "the deal" that could not be duplicated in the common market. There is no way to control what somebody might have to spend. The object here is to educate. If starting from scratch, this Pontiac combo could even be put into a Ventura 4-dr, which I doubt would bring a collector market price. Plus, we don't know what car somebody has access to that they never considered. I want those with the desire to race to be released to participate if that person has or finds a decent car with potential.

The pluses for this Pontiac are that all the cars have strong rear ends, transmissions are easy to adapt, suspensions are common and easy to make work and the engine has potential that can be attained while using basically core engine parts. I did indicate at the beginning that this one will not fit the top tier of el cheapo races cars, but it can be made to be competitive. If a 350 2-bbl Chev at 230 can be race successfully, this one can too.

Danny Ashley · 07-10-2011, 09:30 AM

Back in the late 80's when I had my 1974 GTO I considered the 2-bbl. because that body was a one engine combination for a 4-bbl. I obtained a manifold and carburetor and knowing that the late W.A.Lee worked on 2-bbl's, I sent it to him. He called me up and said they had tried it already and that the carb was too small and it would slow the car one and a half seconds. I had looked at Allen Peters at the time and made my decision off him but W.A. informed me that the '69 Chevy had a much larger venturi. He didn't want to do it because he felt I was wasting my time and sent it back. I really didn't think it would kill it that much so I decided to try it anyway.
It was in the fall and we had decent air but nothing like I had just ran at the Keystones where I was no.1 qualifier and ran 11.97 in L/SA which was really quick for that time. The car at that time with the 2 bbl. was P/SA and the index was an odd number for some reason of 13.54. My first pass was 13.53 followed by a 13.52. The car had no power. I had to almost floor it to do a burnout. I came back and installed the 4-bbl. set-up which is quick to do on a Pontiac and went right back up and went 12.22. I'll admit that the car could go quicker with maybe more gear, smaller headers, cam change, etc. but it didn't look worth the time and money to flogg it out especially when the 4bbl. was so good.
One last thought. Please don't base the 2bbl. combination off of Bill Rink's car. Bill is a good friend and carburetor customer and I can tell you that his engine is a "Top Shelf" Parson & Meyers piece as is everything else on the car. Definitely not a "Dime Rocket". Just a "Rocket" in it's day.

07-09-2011, 11:35 AM	#1
Dwight Southerland VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Arkansas - In the middle of everything. Posts: 1,980 Likes: 52 Liked 724 Times in 177 Posts	Brother, Can You Spare a "Dime"? This one may not be a super cheap build, but it could surely be done without having to hock your old lady to pay for it. 1973-74 Pontiac 350 2-bbl/150 & 170/210 This engine has the exact same specs except for the 2-bbl as the engine in Bill Rink's Ventura GTO a few years back that got factored to 276 as a 4-bbl. The 2-bbl may slow it down, but I don't see 66 hp difference in classification. In a 15 lb. break class, 66 hp is 1000 lb! The potential of the engine is proven, just needs someone to try it. Plus, this engine is available with a 4-speed in a Ventura, Firebird or LeMans. Follow Billy's recipe for smart engine building and you have a competitor!

07-09-2011, 02:00 PM	#2
Jack Matyas Live Reporter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Bethlehem , PA -Christmas City , USA Posts: 4,828 Likes: 336 Liked 1,578 Times in 322 Posts	Re: Brother, Can You Spare a "Dime"? Dwight - Anyone with big enough kahonas to build this combo I can help as I have every single engine part needed and they can be had thru a combined effort with me .These parts are just sitting so they might as well be used ................. __________________ Jack Matyas 1547 FS/C 2015 Camaro COPO # 62- 2012 Camaro Convertible COPO

07-09-2011, 03:40 PM	#3
Mark Yacavone Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Miles From Nowhere Posts: 7,414 Likes: 2,581 Liked 4,447 Times in 1,693 Posts	Re: Brother, Can You Spare a "Dime"? I don't know about that one. Same carb as a 305 SBC @180 hp. Trying to feed a 350 with it ? Wouldn't want a Ventura. Too much money to start .If it doesn't work ,what are you going to do with it? The GTO is ruined, except for SS. Firebird is the best option as a 74 . Plenty of other places to go there, but again, too much money. That leaves the 74 Lemans. Anybody seen one lately? All those old cars are about gone around here. They didn't rust away, but when the economy tanked and scrap went up, anything not running got hauled in, chipped up . LOL __________________ We are lucky we don't get as much Government as we pay for..... Will Rogers

07-09-2011, 04:34 PM	#4
Billy Nees VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: On a hilltop in Pa. Posts: 4,221 Likes: 3,093 Liked 6,784 Times in 1,522 Posts	Re: Brother, Can You Spare a "Dime"? I'd do the Buick. Bigger carb, 5HP less but I do think, based on history, the Pontiac could be a player if you went with it's strengths and put it in a heavy body for T and U. __________________ Billy Nees 1188 STK, SS World's greatest Under-Achiever!

07-09-2011, 11:37 PM	#6
Dwight Southerland VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Arkansas - In the middle of everything. Posts: 1,980 Likes: 52 Liked 724 Times in 177 Posts	Re: Brother, Can You Spare a "Dime"? Mark - I thought part of the premise of this was not the cost of the car?!? Did you change the rule because you don't agree? Billy - The Buick might be a better choice, but the Pontiac has more versatilty. Buick didn't build an F body and they didn't offer their 350 with a 4-speed. The carb is negligible; it's the same size as the one on 350 Chevs that are rated 20 more. Tod - Okay with me, if you can find a taker.

07-10-2011, 03:25 AM	#8
Bobby Zlatkin Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Mills River, NC Posts: 417 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Brother, Can You Spare a "Dime"? The difference between a SBC 350 2 bbl. (230) and a 4 bbl. (287) is 57 HP and the only difference is the carb. Everything else is the same. Can that be worth 57 HP? I know, Mark is going to say, yes. And look at all the different bodies those two combos are avalabile in. __________________ Bobby & Norene Zlatkin L/SA

07-10-2011, 08:47 AM	#9
Dwight Southerland VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Arkansas - In the middle of everything. Posts: 1,980 Likes: 52 Liked 724 Times in 177 Posts	Re: Brother, Can You Spare a "Dime"? From Billy's original post on the other thread: "Billy Nees here, Dwight Southerland and I are going to share a few combos that we feel could be built for $5000 or less (or more) if you already have a body." That was the position I was starting from. I understand and agree with you that the cost of the car is a factor that cannot be ignored, but I want to raise the awareness of racers and potential racers that there are lots of opportunities. Some combinations are better than others, some are easier to find than others and there is always the instance of "the deal" that could not be duplicated in the common market. There is no way to control what somebody might have to spend. The object here is to educate. If starting from scratch, this Pontiac combo could even be put into a Ventura 4-dr, which I doubt would bring a collector market price. Plus, we don't know what car somebody has access to that they never considered. I want those with the desire to race to be released to participate if that person has or finds a decent car with potential. The pluses for this Pontiac are that all the cars have strong rear ends, transmissions are easy to adapt, suspensions are common and easy to make work and the engine has potential that can be attained while using basically core engine parts. I did indicate at the beginning that this one will not fit the top tier of el cheapo races cars, but it can be made to be competitive. If a 350 2-bbl Chev at 230 can be race successfully, this one can too. Last edited by Dwight Southerland; 07-10-2011 at 08:55 AM.

07-10-2011, 09:30 AM	#10
Danny Ashley Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Marion,In. Posts: 257 Likes: 41 Liked 91 Times in 23 Posts	Re: Brother, Can You Spare a "Dime"? Back in the late 80's when I had my 1974 GTO I considered the 2-bbl. because that body was a one engine combination for a 4-bbl. I obtained a manifold and carburetor and knowing that the late W.A.Lee worked on 2-bbl's, I sent it to him. He called me up and said they had tried it already and that the carb was too small and it would slow the car one and a half seconds. I had looked at Allen Peters at the time and made my decision off him but W.A. informed me that the '69 Chevy had a much larger venturi. He didn't want to do it because he felt I was wasting my time and sent it back. I really didn't think it would kill it that much so I decided to try it anyway. It was in the fall and we had decent air but nothing like I had just ran at the Keystones where I was no.1 qualifier and ran 11.97 in L/SA which was really quick for that time. The car at that time with the 2 bbl. was P/SA and the index was an odd number for some reason of 13.54. My first pass was 13.53 followed by a 13.52. The car had no power. I had to almost floor it to do a burnout. I came back and installed the 4-bbl. set-up which is quick to do on a Pontiac and went right back up and went 12.22. I'll admit that the car could go quicker with maybe more gear, smaller headers, cam change, etc. but it didn't look worth the time and money to flogg it out especially when the 4bbl. was so good. One last thought. Please don't base the 2bbl. combination off of Bill Rink's car. Bill is a good friend and carburetor customer and I can tell you that his engine is a "Top Shelf" Parson & Meyers piece as is everything else on the car. Definitely not a "Dime Rocket". Just a "Rocket" in it's day.