441 cyl heads

Rick Shirey · 01-08-2011, 03:53 PM

Several years ago I purchased a set of 441 cyl heads from a super stock racer who guaranteed me that were not cracked and I thought I asked if they were super stock legal. I just recently started to disassemble them and noticed that the intake valves measure at 2.02 and not 1.94. My question is, can I have all the seats replaced in order to go back to the legal valve size of 1.94? Thanks in advance for any and all input.

billy leber · 01-08-2011, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Shirey

Several years ago I purchased a set of 441 cyl heads from a super stock racer who guaranteed me that were not cracked and I thought I asked if they were super stock legal. I just recently started to disassemble them and noticed that the intake valves measure at 2.02 and not 1.94. My question is, can I have all the seats replaced in order to go back to the legal valve size of 1.94? Thanks in advance for any and all input.

You can probably grind the seats back to 1.94 by using a 30 degree stone to grind the 45 to be smaller . It would depend partially how they were opened up and its not optimal because you are probaply going to sink the valves a bit doing this. Also i have a set of 441's if you need them.

rx dealer · 01-08-2011, 05:14 PM

Rick..call someone like Dave Layer who. has done many sets of 441 castings for super stock..or better yet call NHRA and pitition them to make the 2.02 valve legal..what the heck it's a long shot lol..Luke SS 311

X-TECH MAN · 01-08-2011, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Shirey

Several years ago I purchased a set of 441 cyl heads from a super stock racer who guaranteed me that were not cracked and I thought I asked if they were super stock legal. I just recently started to disassemble them and noticed that the intake valves measure at 2.02 and not 1.94. My question is, can I have all the seats replaced in order to go back to the legal valve size of 1.94? Thanks in advance for any and all input.

Yes....Its legal to replace the seats. NHRA OK'ed this a few years ago and IHRA has allowed it almost forever to save rare hard to get casting from becoming junk.
If possable find a shop that uses an adjustable cutter for the seat and guide machine such as a K.O. Lee machine so you can use a little more interfearence (approx .004) fit for the seat ring than the non adjustable standard cutters so they won't come lose and fall out from the hi RPM use. . Make sure the shop uses a sealer/locking liquid compound and freeze the seat rigs before installing them in a warm/hot head. With this method I never had a failure in over 40 years of replacing seats. Use a little more interfearence fit when installing them in alum. heads.

Woodro Josey · 01-08-2011, 09:23 PM

Very well said Terry!

X-TECH MAN · 01-09-2011, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodro Josey

Very well said Terry!

Thanks.....This suggestion helped Lee Edwards (Pro Stock racer from Va.) during a conversation we had at Rockingham back in the early 70s. He was dropping seat rings right and left damaging a lot of parts. After he used more interfearence fit on the alum. Chev. heads and the sealing compound made by "Locktite" it stopped the carnage. I might be old but Im not stupid....LOL. well except maybe wanting to go racing again as part of my "bucket list" might make me dumb !.

Bob Bender · 01-09-2011, 10:51 PM

Rick, if you need a virgin set I have them.

Adger Smith · 01-11-2011, 10:08 AM

Just to let everyone know: It might not be a good idea to freeze the seat rings any more.
I was putting in an oversized ring the way I've done it for years. Heat head and cool the ring.
using an extra .002 fit because the type head was known for dropping rings. The first ring shattered when I hit the driver. Then I pulled the second ring out of the box and checked the size and my fit.. Looked good. Re heated the head and and froze the ring... Same results. Ring shattered. I picked up the phone and called Tech at the seat mfg. The first thing the guy ask me was if I was freezing the ring. Yes--- Don't freeze them was his suggestion. Seems that the metal in the type ring I was using was hardemed & doesn't like to be cold and take a strike from the driver. He said it is OK to freeze some, but the type seat I was installing didn't like the freezing process. It was the correct ring this company suggested for the application.
Sad thing is I killed 2 high dollar seat rings before I learned a lesson. I then read their instructions and there is not one word about freezing in them. They did have some suggested heating temps for alum and cast heads. Remember: not all Loctite solutions are correct for seat applications. Use the correct one. I've been told that some of their compounds don't let the heat transfer out of the hot ex seats to the head. They act as an insulator. In other words it is not the correct place for their thread locker!
The seat thing just goes to show me that not all the processes I've used for years apply to todays new and improved parts.

X-TECH MAN · 01-11-2011, 10:46 AM

Loctite used to make a seat ring locker just for this job. It wasnt a thread locker. Its been awhile since I have done this type of work but I never had a problem of shattered seat rings. May the new stuff isnt so good after all....LOL.

Alan Roehrich · 01-11-2011, 11:41 AM

The current "hot tip" on fluid used to install seats is called seal-lock. It comes in a small bottle similar to the paint marker bottles you see at the salvage yard. The fluid itself is somewhat thin, and a blue-white color. I think Goodson and Silver Seal sell it. It's fairly expensive, not priced anything like Loctite.

A lot of the new seats are made of a tough powdered metal material. As with any ferrous alloy, the harder you make it, the more brittle it becomes. Some of the elements used to make ferrous alloys hard are temperature sensitive, and cold makes them even more brittle. They won't hold up to being struck unsupported at 0 degrees (your freezer is that cold) or colder. They're fine when they're held in place and supported by the seat pocket you cut in the head, because they cannot flex.

01-08-2011, 03:53 PM	#1
Rick Shirey Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 53 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	441 cyl heads Several years ago I purchased a set of 441 cyl heads from a super stock racer who guaranteed me that were not cracked and I thought I asked if they were super stock legal. I just recently started to disassemble them and noticed that the intake valves measure at 2.02 and not 1.94. My question is, can I have all the seats replaced in order to go back to the legal valve size of 1.94? Thanks in advance for any and all input.

01-08-2011, 05:14 PM	#3
rx dealer Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lake Orion, Michigan Posts: 337 Likes: 12 Liked 53 Times in 13 Posts	Re: 441 cyl heads Rick..call someone like Dave Layer who. has done many sets of 441 castings for super stock..or better yet call NHRA and pitition them to make the 2.02 valve legal..what the heck it's a long shot lol..Luke SS 311

01-08-2011, 09:23 PM	#5
Woodro Josey Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 805 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 1 Post	Re: 441 cyl heads Very well said Terry! __________________ Woodro Josey 2002 STK

01-09-2011, 10:51 PM	#7
Bob Bender VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,732 Likes: 1,596 Liked 459 Times in 90 Posts	Re: 441 cyl heads Rick, if you need a virgin set I have them. __________________ Bob Bender 144 O/SA 2010-2012 National Record Holder

01-11-2011, 10:08 AM	#8
Adger Smith VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Texarkana Ark/TX Posts: 2,446 Likes: 575 Liked 880 Times in 311 Posts	Re: 441 cyl heads Just to let everyone know: It might not be a good idea to freeze the seat rings any more. I was putting in an oversized ring the way I've done it for years. Heat head and cool the ring. using an extra .002 fit because the type head was known for dropping rings. The first ring shattered when I hit the driver. Then I pulled the second ring out of the box and checked the size and my fit.. Looked good. Re heated the head and and froze the ring... Same results. Ring shattered. I picked up the phone and called Tech at the seat mfg. The first thing the guy ask me was if I was freezing the ring. Yes--- Don't freeze them was his suggestion. Seems that the metal in the type ring I was using was hardemed & doesn't like to be cold and take a strike from the driver. He said it is OK to freeze some, but the type seat I was installing didn't like the freezing process. It was the correct ring this company suggested for the application. Sad thing is I killed 2 high dollar seat rings before I learned a lesson. I then read their instructions and there is not one word about freezing in them. They did have some suggested heating temps for alum and cast heads. Remember: not all Loctite solutions are correct for seat applications. Use the correct one. I've been told that some of their compounds don't let the heat transfer out of the hot ex seats to the head. They act as an insulator. In other words it is not the correct place for their thread locker! The seat thing just goes to show me that not all the processes I've used for years apply to todays new and improved parts. __________________ Adger Smith (Former SS)

01-11-2011, 10:46 AM	#9
X-TECH MAN Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Lake Placid, Florida Posts: 3,203 Likes: 1,047 Liked 235 Times in 110 Posts	Re: 441 cyl heads Loctite used to make a seat ring locker just for this job. It wasnt a thread locker. Its been awhile since I have done this type of work but I never had a problem of shattered seat rings. May the new stuff isnt so good after all....LOL.

01-11-2011, 11:41 AM	#10
Alan Roehrich Veteran Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Murfreesboro TN Posts: 5,105 Likes: 1,561 Liked 1,789 Times in 408 Posts	Re: 441 cyl heads The current "hot tip" on fluid used to install seats is called seal-lock. It comes in a small bottle similar to the paint marker bottles you see at the salvage yard. The fluid itself is somewhat thin, and a blue-white color. I think Goodson and Silver Seal sell it. It's fairly expensive, not priced anything like Loctite. A lot of the new seats are made of a tough powdered metal material. As with any ferrous alloy, the harder you make it, the more brittle it becomes. Some of the elements used to make ferrous alloys hard are temperature sensitive, and cold makes them even more brittle. They won't hold up to being struck unsupported at 0 degrees (your freezer is that cold) or colder. They're fine when they're held in place and supported by the seat pocket you cut in the head, because they cannot flex. __________________ Alan Roehrich 212A G/S Last edited by Alan Roehrich; 01-11-2011 at 11:44 AM.