Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

No. Look for mid 70's BOP mid size with 11 in. brakes.
No.
Maybe.
BOP 77 and newer wagons have a larger carrier and wider 31 spline axles (not 28)
Wagon rear is 2" wider than sedans. ( Stand back and look at the quarters.You'll see it. Made to put a 4x8 in the cargo area)
Nothing else fits them.
I know you're gonna ask if you can put a 8.5, 28 spline sedan rear in a wagon.
Technically no...because it's narrower..
With the right offset wheels? Well ,you're on your own there.

Looks like that sorta narrows it down to a Bonnie for a '77 build.

OK, you said the odd ball rear began in '77. The '76 Lemans wagon has the same 116" wb. So does it share the same rear as any of the other '73-'77 models ? 8.5 but wider ? And if so, is there a possibility that the '76 wagon rear may have the big brakes and bolt-in axles you mentioned ?

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Looks like that sorta narrows it down to a Bonnie for a '77 build.

OK, you said the odd ball rear began in '77. The '76 Lemans wagon has the same 116" wb. So does it share the same rear as any of the other '73-'77 models ? 8.5 but wider ? And if so, is there a possibility that the '76 wagon rear may have the big brakes and bolt-in axles you mentioned ?

Probably does. No first hand experience though.

[Tony Corley]

Cut the axle tubes and widen them if that is the car you want to build.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Tony Corley

Cut the axle tubes and widen them if that is the car you want to build.

I'm not that worried about the width. I don't think they are going to measure the width of the rear at a division race. Who'd care ? But I'd like to find an 8.5 that will bolt right in, which has the factory bolt-in axles. That way, I can just buy a decent posi and gears, then race it. We've never broke a stock axle. But if I break one of these, then I'll buy some better ones.

[HandOverFist]

REAR END
Original rear end may be replaced with another from the same
automobile manufacturer; truck rear end prohibited. Aluminum
center section permitted only on vehicles that were originally
equipped with same." Distance between backing plates may not
be changed." Any gear ratio that fits third-member case or
housing permitted. Limited-slip or ratchet-type rear ends
permitted. Reinforcement of spring perch permitted. Spools
permitted only with aftermarket axles. Aftermarket axles not
required for front-wheel-drive vehicles. Larger brakes may be
used." Replacement rear end may be narrowed or widened to
obtain original rear-end width." Bracing or beefing up the rearend
housing permitted.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by HandOverFist

REAR END
Original rear end may be replaced with another from the same
automobile manufacturer; truck rear end prohibited. Aluminum
center section permitted only on vehicles that were originally
equipped with same." Distance between backing plates may not
be changed." Any gear ratio that fits third-member case or
housing permitted. Limited-slip or ratchet-type rear ends
permitted. Reinforcement of spring perch permitted. Spools
permitted only with aftermarket axles. Aftermarket axles not
required for front-wheel-drive vehicles. Larger brakes may be
used." Replacement rear end may be narrowed or widened to
obtain original rear-end width." Bracing or beefing up the rearend
housing permitted.

Yeah, I read that. So are you saying that you think the tech guys are actually going to measure the rear end at a division 4 race, when I'm just barely running my index ? I can't see a performance advantage, that would make a difference to anybody.

Again, that's just country boy thinkin. I've never raced a Stocker at the division level. But I've recently read that unless you set a National record, there are no tear downs. So, I reason that if no tear downs, certainly they wouldn't care if your rear end was a couple of inches too short. Is that a reasonable assumption ?

[HandOverFist]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Yeah, I read that. So are you saying that you think the tech guys are actually going to measure the rear end at a division 4 race, when I'm just barely running my index ? I can't see a performance advantage, that would make a difference to anybody.

Again, that's just country boy thinkin. I've never raced a Stocker at the division level. But I've recently read that unless you set a National record, there are no tear downs. So, I reason that if no tear downs, certainly they wouldn't care if your rear end was a couple of inches too short. Is that a reasonable assumption ?

That's how it begins oldschool. Nobody is looking so it's ok to run different heads, larger valves, non-approved pistons, higher lift cam...see where this is going?

[Dion Hildebrandt]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Yeah, I read that. So are you saying that you think the tech guys are actually going to measure the rear end at a division 4 race, when I'm just barely running my index ? I can't see a performance advantage, that would make a difference to anybody.

Again, that's just country boy thinkin. I've never raced a Stocker at the division level. But I've recently read that unless you set a National record, there are no tear downs. So, I reason that if no tear downs, certainly they wouldn't care if your rear end was a couple of inches too short. Is that a reasonable assumption ?

I am weighing in with my first venture with a stocker at a divisional race. I put my car together with a used stocker engine, read and reread the rule book and figured I was ready. Went to the race had issues in tech, had issues at the scales, had issues in staging , had issues on the track. My intention was to go and qualify maybe go a round or two and go home. The reality is I had a car that couldn't run index,I ended up meeting every tech guy on the property, had the car checked as thoroughly as a tear down would be to verify I fit the class claimed, and became known to the racers that didn't know me.

I only bring this up because of your questioning if someone will measure a differential or not. When you are the "new guy on the block" there will be more attention paid than you can imagine. Look up the thread where Toby Lang blasted a competitor for "testing" an illegal carb during qualifying and tell me wrong parts don't matter. Wrong is wrong doesn't matter what $$ state a person is in. I am not a rich man and probably have a car that is not ideal for its class but I run it and run it hard, it took 8 years for the car to come around. Because of the effort I put in my car,If I become aware of a fellow competitor running illegal your damn right I would protest that, the same I would expect to be protested if I was illegal.

my $0.02 take it for what you will.

[Dave Noll]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Looks like that sorta narrows it down to a Bonnie for a '77 build.

Do we have another Barge on the way ?

Originally Posted by oldskool

So are you saying that a high 12 or low 13sec footbraker has the power to shear the spider gear pin ?

My Cougar has a 9" in it but I have had a mini spool in it for years. Moser said it would be plenty strong. When I recently changed gears, I got another one from Jegs. It had 4 hole's in it for use with the 4 spider diff's.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Dave Noll

Do we have another Barge on the way ?

My Cougar has a 9" in it but I have had a mini spool in it for years. Moser said it would be plenty strong. When I recently changed gears, I got another one from Jegs. It had 4 hole's in it for use with the 4 spider diff's.

In 1977 Pontiac downsized the Cats and Bonnies--only a 116" wb. A 2-door Bonnie only weighs about 125 lbs more than a TA, and about a hundred lbs LESS than a Lemans.

I really can't imagine shearing a pin with a slow footbraker. We made hundreds(or maybe well over a thousand--didn't keep track) of passes with our 455 bracket cars, using mini spools, without braking any part of the rear. But, Tony said he's seen the carrier cracked, when using a mini.

Don't know if your 9" carrier is thicker and less prone to cracking or not.