Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

[HandOverFist]

REAR END
Original rear end may be replaced with another from the same
automobile manufacturer; truck rear end prohibited. Aluminum
center section permitted only on vehicles that were originally
equipped with same." Distance between backing plates may not
be changed." Any gear ratio that fits third-member case or
housing permitted. Limited-slip or ratchet-type rear ends
permitted. Reinforcement of spring perch permitted. Spools
permitted only with aftermarket axles. Aftermarket axles not
required for front-wheel-drive vehicles. Larger brakes may be
used." Replacement rear end may be narrowed or widened to
obtain original rear-end width." Bracing or beefing up the rearend
housing permitted.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by HandOverFist

REAR END
Original rear end may be replaced with another from the same
automobile manufacturer; truck rear end prohibited. Aluminum
center section permitted only on vehicles that were originally
equipped with same." Distance between backing plates may not
be changed." Any gear ratio that fits third-member case or
housing permitted. Limited-slip or ratchet-type rear ends
permitted. Reinforcement of spring perch permitted. Spools
permitted only with aftermarket axles. Aftermarket axles not
required for front-wheel-drive vehicles. Larger brakes may be
used." Replacement rear end may be narrowed or widened to
obtain original rear-end width." Bracing or beefing up the rearend
housing permitted.

Yeah, I read that. So are you saying that you think the tech guys are actually going to measure the rear end at a division 4 race, when I'm just barely running my index ? I can't see a performance advantage, that would make a difference to anybody.

Again, that's just country boy thinkin. I've never raced a Stocker at the division level. But I've recently read that unless you set a National record, there are no tear downs. So, I reason that if no tear downs, certainly they wouldn't care if your rear end was a couple of inches too short. Is that a reasonable assumption ?

[HandOverFist]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Yeah, I read that. So are you saying that you think the tech guys are actually going to measure the rear end at a division 4 race, when I'm just barely running my index ? I can't see a performance advantage, that would make a difference to anybody.

Again, that's just country boy thinkin. I've never raced a Stocker at the division level. But I've recently read that unless you set a National record, there are no tear downs. So, I reason that if no tear downs, certainly they wouldn't care if your rear end was a couple of inches too short. Is that a reasonable assumption ?

That's how it begins oldschool. Nobody is looking so it's ok to run different heads, larger valves, non-approved pistons, higher lift cam...see where this is going?

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by HandOverFist

That's how it begins oldschool. Nobody is looking so it's ok to run different heads, larger valves, non-approved pistons, higher lift cam...see where this is going?

Yeah, I think I understand what you are saying. See if I got it right. You feel that EVERYTHING has got to be absolutely legal, including the exact width of the rear end, even to run at a division level race, or don't even take it to the track.
Is that accurate ?

I have a question for you. I've read about the acid ported heads, and the new process that the top name Stocker head shops use to open up the Stock heads for the high dollar Stock racers. I read that many of the quickest cars use these heads and get by with it. So do you consider these heads illegal, even tho the tech guys pass 'em ?

Do you think it's fair for guys running these heads to win their class at a National event, or set a National record, or win any of the big races ?

Do you think it would be worse for me to run a rear that was a couple of inches too short, in order to save some $, than for these guys to win with modified heads ?

If you were racing at the same race I was, would you protest my car or tell one of the tech guys that my rear end was 2 inches too short, and suggest that they measure it to see ? I personally would not care what rear end you had, or how wide the housing was. It would be fine with me if you wanted to run a 9" Ford or a Dana 60.

Hey, if I understand the rules correctly, except for heads up runs, both Stock and SS now run breakout bracket rules. So what difference does it make how wide your rear end housing is ? You think that might be the reason the tech is a little slack at division level races ?

Which item has a performance advantage ?-- the bogus heads or the shorter rear end housing ? If I go to the expense of having a stock housing lengthened 2 inches, and buying new axles to match, how much slower will I go ?

I

[Tony Corley]

So what I am hearing is that since others cheat, then it's permissable for you too also? I understand what you are saying about it not being much of a performance advantage, but it's still against the rules. Why go into a build with the idea that you are going to start out being illegal?

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Tony Corley

Why go into a build with the idea that you are going to start out being illegal?

I reckin it's just a matter of your point of view. Mine is that if a part like the width of a rear end housing is not going to give me an unfair performance advantage over other cars, then what the heck difference does it make, especially since it will only be for maybe one division race per year. It looks to me like you guys are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill, and calling me a cheater, just because I don't have enuff $$ to spend to buy the exact correct length rear end housing, or have someone modify a stock one for me.

I wish I had plenty of $$ to just buy a perfectly built car that would run a sec under and pass tech at any race. But I don't. I reckin I read too much into that $1000 dime rocket thread. Seems that just a legal rear end will cost way more than $1000 by itself.

I'm just in the planning stages of trying to figure out what year and body style I might could run, and I'm already getting negative feedback from you guys. It seems on the surface that you guys are sort of an exclusive club and you don't really want any more Stockers built.

I had in mind trying to build what I can afford and then working on improving it as I go. Ya'll seem to be saying build it perfect before you even take it to a track, or don't even try. Well, unless I win the lottery, I can't afford to build it perfect, so maybe this was just a bad idea from the very start. Oh well, thinkin about it and planning it was fun for a while. Thanks to all you guys for all the advice. And good luck with your racing season.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by oldskool

I reckin it's just a matter of your point of view. Mine is that if a part like the width of a rear end housing is not going to give me an unfair performance advantage over other cars, then what the heck difference does it make, especially since it will only be for maybe one division race per year. It looks to me like you guys are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill, and calling me a cheater, just because I don't have enuff $$ to spend to buy the exact correct length rear end housing, or have someone modify a stock one for me.


I'm not making you out to be a cheater, YOU are doing that! There are rules about rearend width for tire clearence issues and suspension geometry.


I wish I had plenty of $$ to just buy a perfectly built car that would run a sec under and pass tech at any race. But I don't. I reckin I read too much into that $1000 dime rocket thread. Seems that just a legal rear end will cost way more than $1000 by itself.


You apparently didn't read enough out of the dime rocket thread! if you can't afford to get what you want to get, then improvise! But that might mean that you're not going to get the bodystyle that you might want or the best parts!


I'm just in the planning stages of trying to figure out what year and body style I might could run, and I'm already getting negative feedback from you guys. It seems on the surface that you guys are sort of an exclusive club and you don't really want any more Stockers built.


We ARE an exclusive club! And if you can't play by the rules or don't want to play by the rules, then don't play!


I had in mind trying to build what I can afford and then working on improving it as I go. Ya'll seem to be saying build it perfect before you even take it to a track, or don't even try. Well, unless I win the lottery, I can't afford to build it perfect, so maybe this was just a bad idea from the very start. Oh well, thinkin about it and planning it was fun for a while. Thanks to all you guys for all the advice. And good luck with your racing season.

You didn't hear ME say that! The first sentence in your last paragraph is the only thing in your post that makes any sense.
I've brought cars home from junkyards, brought them to the track, raced them, found out what I wanted to find out and brought them back to the junkyard.

You want to race a Pontiac? Get a Pontiac! Preferably find a good running , ugly one. Take it to the track and play with it, see what it wants. If you're a Pontiac guru then it will show you something, build on that. Bracket race the wheels off of it. Add to it as you can afford to. When it runs the index, take it to an NHRA event but when you do, BE LEGAL!

[Tony Corley]

So just to clarify. You feel like no one wants you too race because they won't condone the idea of you cheating? Nobody is saying you have to build it perfect, just legal. I would much rather show up legal and slow, than illegal and a second under the index. Build the car you can afford, (and be legal), and work on it over time to make it better, while racing it in the meantime in brackets. That attention to detail that you referred to lacking earlier is exactly what you need to possess to field a competitive stocker on a limited budget. When you can't afford to pay someone to do everything for you, then you have to learn to do it yourself. That is actually the allure of stock. There are no extremely high dollar parts required to be competitive, just lots of attention to detail. As Billy said, a lot of people have been trying to help you in here, because racers want to see others race. But don't slap them in the face by feeling like you have the right to show up at a race with an illegal car, just because you didn't have the funds to spend on it. Racing is expensive, and class racing moreso. The old saying, "Get in where you fit in" applies.

[HandOverFist]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Yeah, I think I understand what you are saying. See if I got it right. You feel that EVERYTHING has got to be absolutely legal, including the exact width of the rear end, even to run at a division level race, or don't even take it to the track.
Is that accurate ?

I have a question for you. I've read about the acid ported heads, and the new process that the top name Stocker head shops use to open up the Stock heads for the high dollar Stock racers. I read that many of the quickest cars use these heads and get by with it. So do you consider these heads illegal, even tho the tech guys pass 'em ?

Do you think it's fair for guys running these heads to win their class at a National event, or set a National record, or win any of the big races ?

Do you think it would be worse for me to run a rear that was a couple of inches too short, in order to save some $, than for these guys to win with modified heads ?

If you were racing at the same race I was, would you protest my car or tell one of the tech guys that my rear end was 2 inches too short, and suggest that they measure it to see ? I personally would not care what rear end you had, or how wide the housing was. It would be fine with me if you wanted to run a 9" Ford or a Dana 60.

Hey, if I understand the rules correctly, except for heads up runs, both Stock and SS now run breakout bracket rules. So what difference does it make how wide your rear end housing is ? You think that might be the reason the tech is a little slack at division level races ?

Which item has a performance advantage ?-- the bogus heads or the shorter rear end housing ? If I go to the expense of having a stock housing lengthened 2 inches, and buying new axles to match, how much slower will I go ?

I

If you read between your own questions I believe you will have answered all your inquiries.

Consider this...do you really believe the rule book was written with the premise that one could pick and choose which he/she would need to adhere to? If that were the case then why have rules to begin with?

Take our '67 E/SA Camaro for instance - If you read our journey with the car in my build thread it becomes apparent there is little I don't know about or a part I have not had my hands on despite it being initially a ready to race car. If there were one thing that could be picked out by anyone that was not legal I would just shrug my shoulders and figure it was negligence or ignorance on my part alone. The rule I adhere to before all others is keeping "Class" in Class racing. I can go bracket racing anywhere/anytime.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Yeah, I think I understand what you are saying. See if I got it right. You feel that EVERYTHING has got to be absolutely legal, including the exact width of the rear end, even to run at a division level race, or don't even take it to the track.
Is that accurate ?

I have a question for you. I've read about the acid ported heads, and the new process that the top name Stocker head shops use to open up the Stock heads for the high dollar Stock racers. I read that many of the quickest cars use these heads and get by with it. So do you consider these heads illegal, even tho the tech guys pass 'em ?

Do you think it's fair for guys running these heads to win their class at a National event, or set a National record, or win any of the big races ?

Do you think it would be worse for me to run a rear that was a couple of inches too short, in order to save some $, than for these guys to win with modified heads ?

If you were racing at the same race I was, would you protest my car or tell one of the tech guys that my rear end was 2 inches too short, and suggest that they measure it to see ? I personally would not care what rear end you had, or how wide the housing was. It would be fine with me if you wanted to run a 9" Ford or a Dana 60.

Hey, if I understand the rules correctly, except for heads up runs, both Stock and SS now run breakout bracket rules. So what difference does it make how wide your rear end housing is ? You think that might be the reason the tech is a little slack at division level races ?

Which item has a performance advantage ?-- the bogus heads or the shorter rear end housing ? If I go to the expense of having a stock housing lengthened 2 inches, and buying new axles to match, how much slower will I go ?

I

So after reading THAT!?! I'll ask the question again, "why are we having this conversation"? So that you can go out and fiddledick around and play some games that you can't afford to play and embarrass the people on here who are trying to help you?
And don't give me your shtick about the "oh sorry, I don't understand" crap and ask a hundred more questions.
If you can't afford to play or you can't learn how to play then, DON'T PLAY! Just like in the school yard, it's that simple.
You've had a lot of good people on this thread trying to give you the benefit of their hard earned knowledge to try and help you do something that I'm not sure that you even want to do! For what? So you can show up at a local race with a bogus car and make them all look bad?
Either fish or cut bait, Jack!