Single channel O2

Adger Smith · 07-13-2011, 11:02 PM

Charles,
You are so right about using Data to do what you wanted to do. there is quite a lot of that going on. I'll never forget the first race where I helped tune a car with a RacePac....It was a long time ago. The owner was well healed and this was the first RP I had even seen. I had only read about them in ND.
That first night it taught us all a thing or two!! Racing wasn't the same, less cut and try, until 1991 when we first got the Super flow dyno... Talk about Data overload...
Well so much for the stroll down memory lane.
I do want to mention one other thing about using 02's to tune. Last year when I was doing Tech at the Engine Masters I noticed quite a few of engine guys tuned only with the 02.
You know that is O.K., but there was a problem with the fuel (that is another story) and most engines were running in detonation. You could watch and tell who the old school tuners were.
As a Tech Inspector I couldn't say anything to help the participants and it hurt me to watch the results of tuning an engine in detonation with a 02 sensor. If it detonates do yourself a favor and throw that data away. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the type sensor, but they can read some nasty nox when the engine detonates and give false readings. Learning to read plugs and crossreference data is important. OK, thanks for reading my ramble..... It's time to wash this nasty hone oil smell off and get in bed.

tuffxf · 07-13-2011, 11:29 PM

G,day Adger,
I'm not in you guys league at all, noticed a few posts ago about wanting to talk about air / da.
Would be interesting to keep this going i think!
used to race a petrol powered car over here in s/st and car would move .01/100 ft of da change, bet your life on it, was probably a bit fat but was very predictable.
Last major meeting of the 08/09 season that we won car ran on the numbers throughout qualifying, first round of racing had a red light in the other lane and run it through and ran a mile quicker, couldn't get my head around it untill i looked at the water grains, seemed to play a large part in it.
Have now converted to a carbed methanol deal and the water content seems to be a bigger thing than anything else?
When you were talking about watching guys tune with an 02 whilst having detonation what sort of things were you getting at? Just trying to learn here thanks

Charles - i have a daytona sensors wego3, what do you think of them? pm me if you like, the only thing that gets me a bit about it is you can't turn the logging on or off ( unless there is a feature i don't know about) and when you set the sample rate fine and have a car that you drive back to the pits, long return roads, stuck behind slow traffic etc when you go to down load it you find you have used up the recording time with the travelling back to the pits,
At small local tracks with a short return road it works ok.
Thanks!
Paul Dilley

Adger Smith · 07-14-2011, 12:06 AM

Paul,
The water and a few other issues was what I was leading to when talking about tuning with DA. Have you ever run in a tree shrouded track? (does that bring to mind the Temple Tx track for anyone?) Trees make Oxygen... That throws off all the data collected at other tracks without abundant trees. Years ago Bristol was that way. It was an altitude track that was surrounded by trees. I Couldn't tune there. It had altitude, but wasn't responding to an altitude tune. Then Nickens showed me an oxygen meter. It has been many years since I was there, but I think the trees are long gone and it tunes like an altitude track, now.
As for the Detonation, it isn't a clean burn. All sorts of bad happenings in the combustion chamber. Rings knocked loose, oil gets in and is part of the combustion process, ect, ect. How can a sensor read it as a clean burn and tell you what the A/F ratio is. Remember that combustion is a chemical reaction. When Clean combustion takes place the chemicals present are not the same as what is present when there is detonation. (uncontrolled chemical reaction)

tuffxf · 07-14-2011, 07:23 AM

G,day Adger,
okay mate i understand what you are getting at with the detonation.
Thank you!
Cheers
Paul

Charles Rainey · 07-14-2011, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuffxf

G,day Adger,
I'm not in you guys league at all, noticed a few posts ago about wanting to talk about air / da.
Would be interesting to keep this going i think!
used to race a petrol powered car over here in s/st and car would move .01/100 ft of da change, bet your life on it, was probably a bit fat but was very predictable.
Last major meeting of the 08/09 season that we won car ran on the numbers throughout qualifying, first round of racing had a red light in the other lane and run it through and ran a mile quicker, couldn't get my head around it untill i looked at the water grains, seemed to play a large part in it.
Have now converted to a carbed methanol deal and the water content seems to be a bigger thing than anything else?
When you were talking about watching guys tune with an 02 whilst having detonation what sort of things were you getting at? Just trying to learn here thanks

Charles - i have a daytona sensors wego3, what do you think of them? pm me if you like, the only thing that gets me a bit about it is you can't turn the logging on or off ( unless there is a feature i don't know about) and when you set the sample rate fine and have a car that you drive back to the pits, long return roads, stuck behind slow traffic etc when you go to down load it you find you have used up the recording time with the travelling back to the pits,
At small local tracks with a short return road it works ok.
Thanks!
Paul Dilley

Paul
I first thought of PM you but I decided that this should be a forum that we share and learn from. So what I will express is my observation and opinions. I hope some one can add to it and I learn even more. Yes I am aware that some people can have a dim view of someones else's opinion that differs from theirs but most of the time disagreements leads to more learning, and damn I need more learning. I am very aware, at my age, that my best learning is behind me and my most to learn is ahead of me but my ability to retain said information has decreased substantially. Thank goodness for notes. -=---Adger;;You must use the same honing oil that I do. The wife told me to strip off before I came In the house last nite. I really thought I was going to get lucky with my closthes off but she had my shower on when I got inside. HeHaw--
Yes I have tried the Daytona EgoIII or Wego or what ever it is and like every unit I have tried , some part I like well, some parts was Ok, and some parts I did not like. I never could find the resolution but I figure it must be a 12 bit by an accuracy of .1afr (again their number--I did not check). I did not like a total of 8000 bits. I want every data point and then I do with the data what I want. And as a result I dumped all data points into another data logger and finessed the data the way I wanted. I really like a unit to be accurate but what I want more than anything is one that will repeat time after time even after the sensor starts to slow down(which it will). That is one reason I want every data point. Then I can tell when the sensor is going away.. If you want more data I will try to help but there may be others on here that can help more than myself. Maybe I can learn from them. But let me get my note pad first. I did like it to run methanol. Great for that
charles

tuffxf · 07-14-2011, 05:56 PM

G,day Charles,
Thanks very much for the reply!
When you finish checking out that 14point 7 unit would you mind giving me some feedback and your opinion on it, just had a look on their site and by the look of it it does some nice things, would like to be able to log some other inputs as well as it looks like it has a lot longer recording time.
Thanks very much!
Paul Dilley

Charles Rainey · 07-14-2011, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adger Smith

Charles,
You are so right about using Data to do what you wanted to do. there is quite a lot of that going on. I'll never forget the first race where I helped tune a car with a RacePac....It was a long time ago. The owner was well healed and this was the first RP I had even seen. I had only read about them in ND.
That first night it taught us all a thing or two!! Racing wasn't the same, less cut and try, until 1991 when we first got the Super flow dyno... Talk about Data overload...
Well so much for the stroll down memory lane.
I do want to mention one other thing about using 02's to tune. Last year when I was doing Tech at the Engine Masters I noticed quite a few of engine guys tuned only with the 02.
You know that is O.K., but there was a problem with the fuel (that is another story) and most engines were running in detonation. You could watch and tell who the old school tuners were.
As a Tech Inspector I couldn't say anything to help the participants and it hurt me to watch the results of tuning an engine in detonation with a 02 sensor. If it detonates do yourself a favor and throw that data away. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the type sensor, but they can read some nasty nox when the engine detonates and give false readings. Learning to read plugs and crossreference data is important. OK, thanks for reading my ramble..... It's time to wash this nasty hone oil smell off and get in bed.

Adger
If we do not watch we are going to tell our age. I too have seen my world change when I built the Tech Edge out of Australia. Was the first O2 I had seen but it was the tip of the ice berg. And you are correct on data overload. My dyno has 46 channels to log data. Hell when I make a pull Im thru for the day just to look at data and make decisions. My brain aint got but one channel and most of the time it goes in the wrong direction. And man are you ever correct on detonation. No way will I tune by O2 alone. Very often I will not even make a pull on the dyno unless the weather makes a change.

07-13-2011, 11:02 PM	#1
Adger Smith VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Texarkana Ark/TX Posts: 2,446 Likes: 575 Liked 880 Times in 311 Posts	Re: Single channel O2 Charles, You are so right about using Data to do what you wanted to do. there is quite a lot of that going on. I'll never forget the first race where I helped tune a car with a RacePac....It was a long time ago. The owner was well healed and this was the first RP I had even seen. I had only read about them in ND. That first night it taught us all a thing or two!! Racing wasn't the same, less cut and try, until 1991 when we first got the Super flow dyno... Talk about Data overload... Well so much for the stroll down memory lane. I do want to mention one other thing about using 02's to tune. Last year when I was doing Tech at the Engine Masters I noticed quite a few of engine guys tuned only with the 02. You know that is O.K., but there was a problem with the fuel (that is another story) and most engines were running in detonation. You could watch and tell who the old school tuners were. As a Tech Inspector I couldn't say anything to help the participants and it hurt me to watch the results of tuning an engine in detonation with a 02 sensor. If it detonates do yourself a favor and throw that data away. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the type sensor, but they can read some nasty nox when the engine detonates and give false readings. Learning to read plugs and crossreference data is important. OK, thanks for reading my ramble..... It's time to wash this nasty hone oil smell off and get in bed. __________________ Adger Smith (Former SS)

07-13-2011, 11:29 PM	#2
tuffxf Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 41 Likes: 4 Liked 11 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Single channel O2 G,day Adger, I'm not in you guys league at all, noticed a few posts ago about wanting to talk about air / da. Would be interesting to keep this going i think! used to race a petrol powered car over here in s/st and car would move .01/100 ft of da change, bet your life on it, was probably a bit fat but was very predictable. Last major meeting of the 08/09 season that we won car ran on the numbers throughout qualifying, first round of racing had a red light in the other lane and run it through and ran a mile quicker, couldn't get my head around it untill i looked at the water grains, seemed to play a large part in it. Have now converted to a carbed methanol deal and the water content seems to be a bigger thing than anything else? When you were talking about watching guys tune with an 02 whilst having detonation what sort of things were you getting at? Just trying to learn here thanks Charles - i have a daytona sensors wego3, what do you think of them? pm me if you like, the only thing that gets me a bit about it is you can't turn the logging on or off ( unless there is a feature i don't know about) and when you set the sample rate fine and have a car that you drive back to the pits, long return roads, stuck behind slow traffic etc when you go to down load it you find you have used up the recording time with the travelling back to the pits, At small local tracks with a short return road it works ok. Thanks! Paul Dilley

07-14-2011, 12:06 AM	#3
Adger Smith VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Texarkana Ark/TX Posts: 2,446 Likes: 575 Liked 880 Times in 311 Posts	Re: Single channel O2 Paul, The water and a few other issues was what I was leading to when talking about tuning with DA. Have you ever run in a tree shrouded track? (does that bring to mind the Temple Tx track for anyone?) Trees make Oxygen... That throws off all the data collected at other tracks without abundant trees. Years ago Bristol was that way. It was an altitude track that was surrounded by trees. I Couldn't tune there. It had altitude, but wasn't responding to an altitude tune. Then Nickens showed me an oxygen meter. It has been many years since I was there, but I think the trees are long gone and it tunes like an altitude track, now. As for the Detonation, it isn't a clean burn. All sorts of bad happenings in the combustion chamber. Rings knocked loose, oil gets in and is part of the combustion process, ect, ect. How can a sensor read it as a clean burn and tell you what the A/F ratio is. Remember that combustion is a chemical reaction. When Clean combustion takes place the chemicals present are not the same as what is present when there is detonation. (uncontrolled chemical reaction) __________________ Adger Smith (Former SS)

07-14-2011, 07:23 AM	#4
tuffxf Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 41 Likes: 4 Liked 11 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Single channel O2 G,day Adger, okay mate i understand what you are getting at with the detonation. Thank you! Cheers Paul

07-14-2011, 05:56 PM	#6
tuffxf Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 41 Likes: 4 Liked 11 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Single channel O2 G,day Charles, Thanks very much for the reply! When you finish checking out that 14point 7 unit would you mind giving me some feedback and your opinion on it, just had a look on their site and by the look of it it does some nice things, would like to be able to log some other inputs as well as it looks like it has a lot longer recording time. Thanks very much! Paul Dilley Last edited by tuffxf; 07-14-2011 at 06:19 PM.