Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

oldskool · 01-25-2015, 03:40 AM

OK, here's all the bodies that can run the 180hp 400 engine, There are a few more wagons on page 2.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

Now I briefly touched on this in posts # 97 &100. But just to refresh, I discovered from checking last year's division 4 Stocker entries, that there were fewer cars in K/SA and N/SA than most other classes I could run. If you run your index or just barely below it, you need to avoid heads up runs with cars in your class. So I decided to look at which '77 bodies would make it into these classes using the 180hp 400.

As I'm sure most of you guys know without even looking, K is a 13.00lbs/hp class, and N is a 14.50 lbs/hp class. The K/SA index is 12.65, and N/SA is 13.00.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

So, let's look at the cars that will fit in K/SA. I'll kick out the Can Am right off, because they are now high $ collector cars. That leaves all the Catalina, Bonneville, and the 2-door Lemans models. Now, for weight transfer, I figure the shorter wb cars will work better. So if this is the only consideration, the Lemans win with their 112" wb. But, with only a 116" wb, I don't think traction will be a problem with the Cats or Bonnies. They're the same wb as the GP.

Well, I could race a Lemans, but as I've mentioned, I just really don't like the look of the sloped rear deck of the '73-'77 models. So, I Googled up some pics of the Cats and Bonnies. After checkin 'em out as much as I could online, I chose a 2-door Bonnie as my #1 pick.

But, it needs to be the base model Bonnie, not the Broughm. And the reason is not just for looks. I'll show some pics to illustrate this, but the main reason for choosing the base model is because it has more rear side glass than the Broughm. The reason this is important to me is for side vision.

Because of my experience in bracket racing, I discovered the importance of being able to see EXACTLY where your opponent is as you near the finish line. Mirrors don't help in a close finish. If you're the slower car and in the left lane, you need to be able to see the car in the right lane as early as possible when you're close to the finish line. So, the more right side glass you have, the sooner you can see your opponent. Hey, it's called 'brakelight racing" by some, and for good reason.

Now, I better stop right now and say this. I have read enuff on this site to realize that SOME (not all) class racers do not hold bracket racers in very high esteem. Many think that bracket racers are too dumb and / or lazy to build a class car. While that may be true in some cases, it is certainly not true in all cases ! Hey, there are a LOT of class racers who also run bracket. I'd say that most choose bracket racing because that is all their local tracks race, they can build a competitive car MUCH cheaper(with a few dime rockets being the exceptions), they are not limited by so many rules, and they can run for much larger purses than Stockers, at many events throughout the country, and have a chance to beat the high $ cars with their low budget ride. That's just reality.

Another thing that is reality is that except for the same class, heads up rounds, Stock and SS racing today, during the actual, on track competition, uses the exact same rules as bracket racing. Each car sets their own dial(their index or quicker), and if you go quicker than your dial, it's a breakout. That means that a 13 sec car, dialed exactly on his index, can beat a 9 or 10 sec car. That's how it works in bracket racing.

And it's a good thing that Stock & SS class racing uses the bracket system. If not, the classes would probably have vanished long ago. Or it would have become a race between a few rich guys, just like all the no breakout race classes. The guys with the most money to spend, buy the quickest cars, get the best drivers, and win most of the races.

OK, on my next post we'll look closer at the '77 Bonnies.

oldskool · 01-25-2015, 05:46 AM

OK, if the online info is correct, here is a '77 base model Bonneville. The one I like for racing is the 2-door with the swept back roof line. Back in the old days we called 'em "fastback" . It appears as if the bottom of the rear window is aprox half way of the rear wheel well. This will give that extra little bit of side vision I mentioned.

The 4-door rear window doesn't go as far back, so there is less side vision. And the Landau roof has much less glass and more metal. So this type roof will give less side vision than the other 2-door roof type.

But there is a problem with these cars. There ain't many left. Most have been crushed long ago. They are not a sporty lookin car like a Bird, so there is just no demand for 'em. So, just finding one of 'em may be tuff. Therefore, I'll expand my possible choices to provide a better chance of finding a suitable car.

oldskool · 01-25-2015, 06:58 AM

OK, the Catalina was the same size as the Bonnie, but had a different grill. They also had the same fastback roof line in the 2-door models. So, one of these will do just as good.

The '78's had a different grill than the '77's. I found a '78 on the track.

What do ya'll think would be the chances of finding one of these old cars in usable condition ?

oldskool · 01-25-2015, 07:33 AM

Then, of course to make N/SA @ 14.5 lbs/hp, would require a wagon or a GP SJ. But because of the lack of side vision, I've decided not to use a GP.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

Either a Cat or a Grand Safari wagon would do nicely, and have PLENTY of side vision. Besides having more weight over the rear tires, the extra side vision is another advantage of using a wagon.

Dave Gantz · 01-25-2015, 11:00 AM

I have nothing to offer, I just wanted to say that if enthusiasm were equal to wins, you'd be number 1 in points every year!
Good luck with your project.

oldskool · 01-25-2015, 01:29 PM

Thanks !

Now I need to ask a rear end question. Does anybody know if these '77 Cats and Bonnies had the 8.5" rear ?

I know the '71-'81 Birds and I think the '71-'74 Ventura had the 8.5. I have one in my '74 Vent bracket car, and it seems plenty strong for a low 12 or high 11 sec car. But I've read that some of the lower powered Vents from the later '70's had the smaller 7.5 rear. Just don't know about the Cats and Bonnies.

I've read that these big tens are almost as strong as a 12 bolt and will do just fine at this level of racing. I've never broken a stock axle. But I reckin NHRA requires aftermarket axles and / or C-clip eliminators. Is this correct ?

Mark Yacavone · 01-25-2015, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldskool

Then, of course to make N/SA @ 14.5 lbs/hp, would require a wagon or a GP SJ. But because of the lack of side vision, I've decided not to use a GP.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

Either a Cat or a Grand Safari wagon would do nicely, and have PLENTY of side vision. Besides having more weight over the rear tires, the extra side vision is another advantage of using a wagon.

You just need a Bonneville 2 dr. to make N/SA.

Had one for sale here a couple of years ago..Cheap roller.
No calls..No notes...Scrapped it!

Yes 2 dr. should be 8.5 ..Watch the wagons..They had a weird one..2 inches wider too.

oldskool · 01-25-2015, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

>>>>>You just need a Bonneville 2 dr. to make N/SA.<<<<<<

Yes 2 dr. should be 8.5 ..Watch the wagons..They had a weird one..2 inches wider too.

I must be missing something here. If I'm reading this info correctly, it says that the weight break for N/SA is 14.5 lbs/hp, with an index of 13 flat.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

This page says a wagon hits 14.50 right on the head, @ 4103 lbs. But I got out the calculator and it says that in order to get those figures, they'd have to be using the 283hp factor for this engine in a Bird.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

But the info on this page clearly says that the 180hp 400 engine was only factored at 283 in the Birds. It is factored at only 260 in everything else. So if this ain't so, now I'm really confused.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

So am I just reading the info sheet wrong ? Or, are their calculations wrong ? Shouldn't they be using the 260hp factor for this engine in the Cats, Bonnies and wagons ??? If this info is incorrect, where exactly can I find the correct Stocker info ???

OK, assuming that the hp factor of 260 is correct, Then a 2-door Bonnie Brougham with this engine would have a weight factor of :

3689 lbs / 260hp = 14.19 instead of the 13.04 listed on the Class Racer Info page. So if this is correct, then you could just add weight to make the 14.50 lbs/hp break, which will be an N/SA.

14.50 x 260hp = 3770lbs - 3689 = 81lbs difference

So, you'd need to add 81 lbs to the shipping weight of the car to make the 14.50 weight break.

So. exactly how would I go about finding out if the hp factor is listed wrong on the sheet, or the calculations are done wrong, by using the 283 Bird hp factor for the engine ?

It would be a shame to build a car, going by incorrect info, only to find out at your 1st event tech, that you will be in a completely different class than you planned and built for.

oldskool · 01-25-2015, 07:32 PM

OK, unless and until I hear different, I'll assume that the 260hp factor is the figure to use when doing class calculations for everything except a Bird in '77. And, as of now, I'll have to use the shipping weights listed on these Class Racer info sheets. But I'll ignore their weight break calculations and do my own with a calculator.

So, by using this method, it appears that the highest class that could be run with this engine in a non-Bird is with a Cat 2-door.

3601 lbs / 260hp = 13.85

So, if I understand the rules correctly you can take out weight to meet the minimum for the class your car naturally falls into. Or you can take out more weight to meet the minimum for the next higher class. Or you can add weight to make the next lower class. So, that means that most cars can run any one of 3 classes just by adding or removing weight. Is this correct ?

If so, then the 2-door Cat I mentioned will naturally fall into the 13.50 weight break class, which is L/SA. Or, I can remove weight to meet the minimum for the next higher class which has a 13.00 weight break. This will be a K/SA with an index of 12.65.

13.00 x 260hp = 3380 lbs

3601 - 3380 = 221 lbs

If my calculations are correct, you'd have to remove 221 lbs from the 3601 lb shipping weight, to fit the 13.00 lb/hp weight break perfectly. Is it legal to run that far below the shipping weight ?

Just out of curiosity, what year did NHRA start allowing you to add and take out weight to make different classes. Before they did this, did they 1st just allow you to remove weight to meet the minimum for your natural class ? Or did they make the changes all at the same time ?

When we ran Stock, the car ran at no less than its shipping weight--period. What ever class it naturally fell into, that's the class you ran with that car. That gave some cars a weight advantage. We ran a 330hp '68 Bird with a 3300 lb shipping weight. So it was a perfect fit for the 10 lb/hp weight break--E/SA.

01-25-2015, 05:46 AM	#2
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy OK, if the online info is correct, here is a '77 base model Bonneville. The one I like for racing is the 2-door with the swept back roof line. Back in the old days we called 'em "fastback" . It appears as if the bottom of the rear window is aprox half way of the rear wheel well. This will give that extra little bit of side vision I mentioned. The 4-door rear window doesn't go as far back, so there is less side vision. And the Landau roof has much less glass and more metal. So this type roof will give less side vision than the other 2-door roof type. But there is a problem with these cars. There ain't many left. Most have been crushed long ago. They are not a sporty lookin car like a Bird, so there is just no demand for 'em. So, just finding one of 'em may be tuff. Therefore, I'll expand my possible choices to provide a better chance of finding a suitable car. Attached Thumbnails Attached Images Last edited by oldskool; 01-25-2015 at 05:57 AM.

01-25-2015, 06:58 AM	#3
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy OK, the Catalina was the same size as the Bonnie, but had a different grill. They also had the same fastback roof line in the 2-door models. So, one of these will do just as good. The '78's had a different grill than the '77's. I found a '78 on the track. What do ya'll think would be the chances of finding one of these old cars in usable condition ? Attached Thumbnails Last edited by oldskool; 01-25-2015 at 07:04 AM.

01-25-2015, 07:33 AM	#4
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy Then, of course to make N/SA @ 14.5 lbs/hp, would require a wagon or a GP SJ. But because of the lack of side vision, I've decided not to use a GP. http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764 http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx Either a Cat or a Grand Safari wagon would do nicely, and have PLENTY of side vision. Besides having more weight over the rear tires, the extra side vision is another advantage of using a wagon. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by oldskool; 01-25-2015 at 07:36 AM.

01-25-2015, 11:00 AM	#5
Dave Gantz Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Verrry South Jersey Posts: 537 Likes: 134 Liked 251 Times in 125 Posts	Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy I have nothing to offer, I just wanted to say that if enthusiasm were equal to wins, you'd be number 1 in points every year! Good luck with your project.

01-25-2015, 01:29 PM	#6
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy Thanks ! Now I need to ask a rear end question. Does anybody know if these '77 Cats and Bonnies had the 8.5" rear ? I know the '71-'81 Birds and I think the '71-'74 Ventura had the 8.5. I have one in my '74 Vent bracket car, and it seems plenty strong for a low 12 or high 11 sec car. But I've read that some of the lower powered Vents from the later '70's had the smaller 7.5 rear. Just don't know about the Cats and Bonnies. I've read that these big tens are almost as strong as a 12 bolt and will do just fine at this level of racing. I've never broken a stock axle. But I reckin NHRA requires aftermarket axles and / or C-clip eliminators. Is this correct ?

01-25-2015, 03:40 AM	#1
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy OK, here's all the bodies that can run the 180hp 400 engine, There are a few more wagons on page 2. http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764 Now I briefly touched on this in posts # 97 &100. But just to refresh, I discovered from checking last year's division 4 Stocker entries, that there were fewer cars in K/SA and N/SA than most other classes I could run. If you run your index or just barely below it, you need to avoid heads up runs with cars in your class. So I decided to look at which '77 bodies would make it into these classes using the 180hp 400. As I'm sure most of you guys know without even looking, K is a 13.00lbs/hp class, and N is a 14.50 lbs/hp class. The K/SA index is 12.65, and N/SA is 13.00. http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx So, let's look at the cars that will fit in K/SA. I'll kick out the Can Am right off, because they are now high $ collector cars. That leaves all the Catalina, Bonneville, and the 2-door Lemans models. Now, for weight transfer, I figure the shorter wb cars will work better. So if this is the only consideration, the Lemans win with their 112" wb. But, with only a 116" wb, I don't think traction will be a problem with the Cats or Bonnies. They're the same wb as the GP. Well, I could race a Lemans, but as I've mentioned, I just really don't like the look of the sloped rear deck of the '73-'77 models. So, I Googled up some pics of the Cats and Bonnies. After checkin 'em out as much as I could online, I chose a 2-door Bonnie as my #1 pick. But, it needs to be the base model Bonnie, not the Broughm. And the reason is not just for looks. I'll show some pics to illustrate this, but the main reason for choosing the base model is because it has more rear side glass than the Broughm. The reason this is important to me is for side vision. Because of my experience in bracket racing, I discovered the importance of being able to see EXACTLY where your opponent is as you near the finish line. Mirrors don't help in a close finish. If you're the slower car and in the left lane, you need to be able to see the car in the right lane as early as possible when you're close to the finish line. So, the more right side glass you have, the sooner you can see your opponent. Hey, it's called 'brakelight racing" by some, and for good reason. Now, I better stop right now and say this. I have read enuff on this site to realize that SOME (not all) class racers do not hold bracket racers in very high esteem. Many think that bracket racers are too dumb and / or lazy to build a class car. While that may be true in some cases, it is certainly not true in all cases ! Hey, there are a LOT of class racers who also run bracket. I'd say that most choose bracket racing because that is all their local tracks race, they can build a competitive car MUCH cheaper(with a few dime rockets being the exceptions), they are not limited by so many rules, and they can run for much larger purses than Stockers, at many events throughout the country, and have a chance to beat the high $ cars with their low budget ride. That's just reality. Another thing that is reality is that except for the same class, heads up rounds, Stock and SS racing today, during the actual, on track competition, uses the exact same rules as bracket racing. Each car sets their own dial(their index or quicker), and if you go quicker than your dial, it's a breakout. That means that a 13 sec car, dialed exactly on his index, can beat a 9 or 10 sec car. That's how it works in bracket racing. And it's a good thing that Stock & SS class racing uses the bracket system. If not, the classes would probably have vanished long ago. Or it would have become a race between a few rich guys, just like all the no breakout race classes. The guys with the most money to spend, buy the quickest cars, get the best drivers, and win most of the races. OK, on my next post we'll look closer at the '77 Bonnies. Last edited by oldskool; 01-25-2015 at 03:47 AM.

01-25-2015, 07:32 PM	#9
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 747 Times in 362 Posts	Re: Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy OK, unless and until I hear different, I'll assume that the 260hp factor is the figure to use when doing class calculations for everything except a Bird in '77. And, as of now, I'll have to use the shipping weights listed on these Class Racer info sheets. But I'll ignore their weight break calculations and do my own with a calculator. So, by using this method, it appears that the highest class that could be run with this engine in a non-Bird is with a Cat 2-door. 3601 lbs / 260hp = 13.85 So, if I understand the rules correctly you can take out weight to meet the minimum for the class your car naturally falls into. Or you can take out more weight to meet the minimum for the next higher class. Or you can add weight to make the next lower class. So, that means that most cars can run any one of 3 classes just by adding or removing weight. Is this correct ? If so, then the 2-door Cat I mentioned will naturally fall into the 13.50 weight break class, which is L/SA. Or, I can remove weight to meet the minimum for the next higher class which has a 13.00 weight break. This will be a K/SA with an index of 12.65. 13.00 x 260hp = 3380 lbs 3601 - 3380 = 221 lbs If my calculations are correct, you'd have to remove 221 lbs from the 3601 lb shipping weight, to fit the 13.00 lb/hp weight break perfectly. Is it legal to run that far below the shipping weight ? Just out of curiosity, what year did NHRA start allowing you to add and take out weight to make different classes. Before they did this, did they 1st just allow you to remove weight to meet the minimum for your natural class ? Or did they make the changes all at the same time ? When we ran Stock, the car ran at no less than its shipping weight--period. What ever class it naturally fell into, that's the class you ran with that car. That gave some cars a weight advantage. We ran a 330hp '68 Bird with a 3300 lb shipping weight. So it was a perfect fit for the 10 lb/hp weight break--E/SA.