The death of bracket racing........

Dick Butler · 01-07-2008, 09:40 AM

Rick, One of the hardest things to get across is that in no way do I believe Heads up racing in Sportsman level is the "Only kind of racing" I agree the index system helped save S and SS and keep it locally interesting. BUT..... the pendulum has been allowed to swing too far away from the part which can be used for keeping our "Show Value". We need dial in for eliminator. NOT FOR EVERY MEET without some "SHOW VALUE"
I could not predict how many classes "should be" in S and SS. There are just way too many. Its a statistical thing. 1000 cars nation wide divided into 200 classes = 5 per class nationwide. Hold an event and 2 might show(except indy). Say there were 40 classes and divide the same number of cars makes 50 cars per class nation wide. You could hear about competitors, gauge your accomplishments, Have class racing at National events which are more fun and challenge to EARN a Wally. Maybe a few Sponsors might even decide to reinvest in class money. Afterall they are now only posting for 40 classes not 200 right?
(Disclaimer: numbers are used for example)
Money: NHRA has inadvertently created enough classes to get people to stretch their budget past what it might take to race at an heads up only method. Some of this is our own fault. Some "wish " they could run Pro Stock and recognize the budget and quickly dont try it. Some think that if they only "need" to dial in they can afford the NHRA points meets and Nationals. These latter people will still be able to race but maybe they wont be as competitive at Class events but will still have the Points meets and Open events where they can enjoy the "driving challenge" of the dial in racing.
Those who think someone will pay them to enjoy their racing without a profit for the track from food, spectators or racer numbers are mistaken. If we recognise how the bigger picture can be helped there will be no need to sacrifice our racing locally or Nationally and it is my opinion we will HELP make it more fun and profitable for all.
Above all I feel both methods of racing need to exist but the balance is not currently there. By having opportunities to create a show again(TOP/SS, TOP/STK, Jr. Stk .....) choices can be made of which type of racing indiividuals prefer and be used to add spectator appeal.By Reduction of classes, competition can return to National events where "class" is run. This will also aid in making the AHFS more effective and everyone wins....
Thanks Rick

Freddie · 01-07-2008, 09:57 AM

Dick: the biggest issue I see with todays SS racing is the fact tht unless you have a high $$$ converted FWD car you get crap.. I have a Mustang that we run S/ST with car was intended to run SS but I cant use the tubular front end in SS, kida suks because IF I had built a Probe or any other FWD conversion car, I could have the best, lightest strut setup money could buy.. thus the rules are what is making it hard on some of us who want to run class, but simply cannot afford to build 80k racecars...

I agree you should only race within your means... I am most likely one of the few in our area who still build my own cars, engines and whatever else I can do to save a few $$$ so I can race a beter piece..

I would love to see NHRA/IHRA.. anyone come out with a heads up type class like class racing used to be in the mid-late 80's.. very strict rules, no one car clearly had an advantage... almost like the NMRA/NMCA have done with some of thier classes.. all heads up.. the one who can figure out the setup wins..

I used to race with a guy from Jersey, ran a SS/FM camaro, had more fun running that car, working on it almost every week to try to find a .002 somewhere.. went to the nationals he won class several others there. that was fun.. I ran Comp. for a brief time A/EA.. till they allowed the use of the Pontiac/Buick aluminum heads.. I could only muster a .2 under with a great set of steel heads, but everyone was about the same.. then all of a sudden the aluminum heads were .8 faster then the index got lowered..

I know we have to evolve as racers with todays technology.. but it seems to me that the powers to be dont allways allow the technology where it is needed.. ie. tubular front suspensions.. alot stronger, and safer than OEM parts..you would then have alot more crossover racers..

Dick Butler · 01-07-2008, 10:08 AM

Freddie, Problem is within the Gt versus SS rules. In order to "allow" FWD cars "allowances" were made.
It parallels you wish for one car, one set of rules being the challenge. Too many "allowances" here or there makes it LOOK lobsided. I agree if every class evolved together it would be better BUT then we are getting away from the real SS idea of original chassis again.....

Freddie · 01-07-2008, 10:31 AM

I couldnt agree more..

But if your going to allow it on one side then it should be allowed on the other as well..

Truth being told.. we got away from the original idea of S/SS racing a long time ago.. cars are no longer measured on haow hard a person works to achieve anything.. instead it has become who can afford to out perform the guy on top this week.. I for one dont want any part of a financial Pi$$ing match..

Back in the late 80's I went to a few brcket races.. more for test time on my setup than anything else.. as the new rules and $$$ got out of hand for me.. we became participants at the bracket races instead of just testing..

I personally dont cre for the super classes either, but until I either hit the lottery, or some rules drasticly change.. that is where I can race my two cars comfortably.. along with brackets..

Dick Butler · 01-07-2008, 11:11 AM

Freddie,
Good Luck at the track.... Thanks for the discussions.....Dick

Webster · 01-07-2008, 12:09 PM

Kinda veered off course with all of the talk about "EARNING" a wally and how to make stock and super stock more spectator friendly...NEVER gonna make bracket or "class" racing a spectator sport......NEVER!!!!!!!

I'll beat the "class" racing drum for a moment........we've got a legal SS, albeit only 6-7 tenths under on a good day, sitting in the garage. Also have the finacial means, on clock puncher wages, to show up and participate. However, Freddie hit the nail on the head..."fianancial pi$$ing" contests....IMO equal BUYING a wally as oposed to "EARNING" it.

How bought this for leveling the playing field........dial in formats across the board......to include "class"and the "eliminator"....no more heads up??? Drive, back or luck your way(or as all of us will attest, usually a combination of all of the aforementioned) into the winners circle, at the end of the day.......any way you slice it......wally "EARNED" as opposed to wally purchased!!!!!

My mini goals or rewards..................win lights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dick Butler · 01-07-2008, 12:51 PM

Webster,
If only dialing in to race what would be the reason for having "rules". Thats what bracket racing is about. No set of regulations to show you can use to win. No other people running your combination. No one to set as a goal to work toward beating. Just dial it in and bracket race.
Not everyone feels that is enough. Not downing it as a "form" of dragracing but your original comments were how it is dying at local tracks. Others commented how their track has a heads up format which brings spectators(MONEY for track to stay open so you have a place to dial in race) Doesnt it appear both can exit? Couldnt letting Heads up who can afford have the race that draws in the spectators to pay and the others have a place to run their cars too.
Disclaimer: It isnt all about MONEY but some would like to claim it is.Most winners are skilled drivers, mechanics and happen to have a good job too.

Johnny Claridge · 06-13-2010, 11:22 AM

It sure needs help today

Freddie · 06-14-2010, 07:35 AM

If anything lately I have seen a growth in car count at our local track, which is very encouraging...

Even though our S/P count may not be what is used to be there are more than ever sportsman cars, and for some insane reason Jr. Dragsters...

Another thing to help drag racing along is as a seasoned racer take some time to encourage these kids racing thier hearts out for little to no money each week... some of these Jr's can cost upwards of 10K or more, and most race for a trophy or maybe $100. At our local track each week someone has been putting up extra $$$ for the kids, but not for a win... for best RT in time runs, or closest loosing rd in 1st rd... someting to reward kids that dont usually get anything..

And I like the other comment about take someone to the track who has never been down the track in a car... dont need to be a real fast car, but let them stage and drive down the track ... they will be back...

01-07-2008, 09:40 AM	#1
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: The death of bracket racing........ Rick, One of the hardest things to get across is that in no way do I believe Heads up racing in Sportsman level is the "Only kind of racing" I agree the index system helped save S and SS and keep it locally interesting. BUT..... the pendulum has been allowed to swing too far away from the part which can be used for keeping our "Show Value". We need dial in for eliminator. NOT FOR EVERY MEET without some "SHOW VALUE" I could not predict how many classes "should be" in S and SS. There are just way too many. Its a statistical thing. 1000 cars nation wide divided into 200 classes = 5 per class nationwide. Hold an event and 2 might show(except indy). Say there were 40 classes and divide the same number of cars makes 50 cars per class nation wide. You could hear about competitors, gauge your accomplishments, Have class racing at National events which are more fun and challenge to EARN a Wally. Maybe a few Sponsors might even decide to reinvest in class money. Afterall they are now only posting for 40 classes not 200 right? (Disclaimer: numbers are used for example) Money: NHRA has inadvertently created enough classes to get people to stretch their budget past what it might take to race at an heads up only method. Some of this is our own fault. Some "wish " they could run Pro Stock and recognize the budget and quickly dont try it. Some think that if they only "need" to dial in they can afford the NHRA points meets and Nationals. These latter people will still be able to race but maybe they wont be as competitive at Class events but will still have the Points meets and Open events where they can enjoy the "driving challenge" of the dial in racing. Those who think someone will pay them to enjoy their racing without a profit for the track from food, spectators or racer numbers are mistaken. If we recognise how the bigger picture can be helped there will be no need to sacrifice our racing locally or Nationally and it is my opinion we will HELP make it more fun and profitable for all. Above all I feel both methods of racing need to exist but the balance is not currently there. By having opportunities to create a show again(TOP/SS, TOP/STK, Jr. Stk .....) choices can be made of which type of racing indiividuals prefer and be used to add spectator appeal.By Reduction of classes, competition can return to National events where "class" is run. This will also aid in making the AHFS more effective and everyone wins.... Thanks Rick

01-07-2008, 09:57 AM	#2
Freddie Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tampa Fla / Anderson SC Posts: 334 Likes: 12 Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Re: The death of bracket racing........ Dick: the biggest issue I see with todays SS racing is the fact tht unless you have a high $$$ converted FWD car you get crap.. I have a Mustang that we run S/ST with car was intended to run SS but I cant use the tubular front end in SS, kida suks because IF I had built a Probe or any other FWD conversion car, I could have the best, lightest strut setup money could buy.. thus the rules are what is making it hard on some of us who want to run class, but simply cannot afford to build 80k racecars... I agree you should only race within your means... I am most likely one of the few in our area who still build my own cars, engines and whatever else I can do to save a few $$$ so I can race a beter piece.. I would love to see NHRA/IHRA.. anyone come out with a heads up type class like class racing used to be in the mid-late 80's.. very strict rules, no one car clearly had an advantage... almost like the NMRA/NMCA have done with some of thier classes.. all heads up.. the one who can figure out the setup wins.. I used to race with a guy from Jersey, ran a SS/FM camaro, had more fun running that car, working on it almost every week to try to find a .002 somewhere.. went to the nationals he won class several others there. that was fun.. I ran Comp. for a brief time A/EA.. till they allowed the use of the Pontiac/Buick aluminum heads.. I could only muster a .2 under with a great set of steel heads, but everyone was about the same.. then all of a sudden the aluminum heads were .8 faster then the index got lowered.. I know we have to evolve as racers with todays technology.. but it seems to me that the powers to be dont allways allow the technology where it is needed.. ie. tubular front suspensions.. alot stronger, and safer than OEM parts..you would then have alot more crossover racers..

01-07-2008, 10:08 AM	#3
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: The death of bracket racing........ Freddie, Problem is within the Gt versus SS rules. In order to "allow" FWD cars "allowances" were made. It parallels you wish for one car, one set of rules being the challenge. Too many "allowances" here or there makes it LOOK lobsided. I agree if every class evolved together it would be better BUT then we are getting away from the real SS idea of original chassis again.....

01-07-2008, 10:31 AM	#4
Freddie Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tampa Fla / Anderson SC Posts: 334 Likes: 12 Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Re: The death of bracket racing........ I couldnt agree more.. But if your going to allow it on one side then it should be allowed on the other as well.. Truth being told.. we got away from the original idea of S/SS racing a long time ago.. cars are no longer measured on haow hard a person works to achieve anything.. instead it has become who can afford to out perform the guy on top this week.. I for one dont want any part of a financial Pi$$ing match.. Back in the late 80's I went to a few brcket races.. more for test time on my setup than anything else.. as the new rules and $$$ got out of hand for me.. we became participants at the bracket races instead of just testing.. I personally dont cre for the super classes either, but until I either hit the lottery, or some rules drasticly change.. that is where I can race my two cars comfortably.. along with brackets..

01-07-2008, 11:11 AM	#5
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: The death of bracket racing........ Freddie, Good Luck at the track.... Thanks for the discussions.....Dick

01-07-2008, 12:09 PM	#6
Webster Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 24 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: The death of bracket racing........ Kinda veered off course with all of the talk about "EARNING" a wally and how to make stock and super stock more spectator friendly...NEVER gonna make bracket or "class" racing a spectator sport......NEVER!!!!!!! I'll beat the "class" racing drum for a moment........we've got a legal SS, albeit only 6-7 tenths under on a good day, sitting in the garage. Also have the finacial means, on clock puncher wages, to show up and participate. However, Freddie hit the nail on the head..."fianancial pi$$ing" contests....IMO equal BUYING a wally as oposed to "EARNING" it. How bought this for leveling the playing field........dial in formats across the board......to include "class"and the "eliminator"....no more heads up??? Drive, back or luck your way(or as all of us will attest, usually a combination of all of the aforementioned) into the winners circle, at the end of the day.......any way you slice it......wally "EARNED" as opposed to wally purchased!!!!! My mini goals or rewards..................win lights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

01-07-2008, 12:51 PM	#7
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: The death of bracket racing........ Webster, If only dialing in to race what would be the reason for having "rules". Thats what bracket racing is about. No set of regulations to show you can use to win. No other people running your combination. No one to set as a goal to work toward beating. Just dial it in and bracket race. Not everyone feels that is enough. Not downing it as a "form" of dragracing but your original comments were how it is dying at local tracks. Others commented how their track has a heads up format which brings spectators(MONEY for track to stay open so you have a place to dial in race) Doesnt it appear both can exit? Couldnt letting Heads up who can afford have the race that draws in the spectators to pay and the others have a place to run their cars too. Disclaimer: It isnt all about MONEY but some would like to claim it is.Most winners are skilled drivers, mechanics and happen to have a good job too.

06-13-2010, 11:22 AM	#8
Johnny Claridge Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 11 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: The death of bracket racing........ It sure needs help today

06-14-2010, 07:35 AM	#9
Freddie Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tampa Fla / Anderson SC Posts: 334 Likes: 12 Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Re: The death of bracket racing........ If anything lately I have seen a growth in car count at our local track, which is very encouraging... Even though our S/P count may not be what is used to be there are more than ever sportsman cars, and for some insane reason Jr. Dragsters... Another thing to help drag racing along is as a seasoned racer take some time to encourage these kids racing thier hearts out for little to no money each week... some of these Jr's can cost upwards of 10K or more, and most race for a trophy or maybe $100. At our local track each week someone has been putting up extra $$$ for the kids, but not for a win... for best RT in time runs, or closest loosing rd in 1st rd... someting to reward kids that dont usually get anything.. And I like the other comment about take someone to the track who has never been down the track in a car... dont need to be a real fast car, but let them stage and drive down the track ... they will be back...