Automatic Horsepower Factoring System - Page 4

vic guilmino · 04-02-2008, 08:11 PM

evan
iam going bye what you have said to me at etown last year
and i do not think anybody is running d with f wt.
that would be 300 + #s

Bruce Noland · 04-02-2008, 09:22 PM

Evan,

My beef is with a convoluted rule system that is being administered by hit and run artists. I'm glad you had a good conversation with Wesley. Please do me a favor and ask him why he doesn't bother to announce rule changes before he implements them? Also ask him why he didn't bother to tell all the racers that he had come up with this insane grouping of combinations before he started whacking them? Gettting a straight answer for these two questions would be very helpful. I wish you all the best.

I have communicated with two other members of the council in the last 24 hours and sincerely hope all of you can make a difference. Why? Because racers are giving up. In the last three months I have heard more than a few racers say they are having serious thoughts about quitting.

Rich Biebel · 04-02-2008, 10:13 PM

Forgive me for being an outsider making a comment about Stock and the AHFS and what some guys say. It is hard to read some of this stuff and not want to make a comment. It is always pointed out that Stock should be a performance based category and is not bracket racing. Well I have to point out to you that many races are being won by notoriuosly good bracket racers. All over the country winners are often previously known for their bracket racing wins. And it kind of strikes me that no matter what plan or program NHRA devises to try and "equalize" the various combinations......somebody is not happy and starts to point out why it doesn't work, won't work, isn't fair and so on. In the old days.....and I was there and raced under those conditions......YOU RACED OFF YOUR NATIONAL RECORDS...No indexes....sandbag if you want but handicaps were set by your records. I also recall that during some periods if you exceeded your record in a final round, you tore down and if your were good,,,, you got the win and the record as well. You want your integrity back......go back to the old rules and trash the AHFS.........Stop bitching and do some real racing.....I'd rather watch Pinks than modern day Stock the way it's being run with all the sandbagging, whinning and complaining. I raced Stock a very limited number of years with various cars in different eras. I quit after my last short stint and some of you would slam me as an outsider. That's ok....I'm just giving you my point of view as one who has raced it and many other categories as well. Devise a set of rules that let the fast cars win but enforce the rules and put some real racing back into your category. Show off your performance and be willing to tear it down to get the money and hardware. That would make Stock eliminator a hell of a lot better and definately seperate yourselves from us "lowly" bracket and super class racers! Flame on....

vic guilmino · 04-02-2008, 10:53 PM

that system was tried and did not work
but no system is going to make everbody happy
i have raced since july 1960 and that seen a lot of things tried
i go to nationals event for one reason TO WIN CLASS
EVAN
next time i see you i will buy you a beer thats root beer of corse

Bruce Noland · 04-03-2008, 09:13 AM

I love it when guys come out here and say stop your bitching when racers have legitimate complaints about the condition of our sport - especially when these guys have nothing to do with the issue.

I can speak for some of the go fast guys when I say we have no problem with the bracket racers who do well in this sport. But for us the real problems come up when we are unfairly penalized for enjoying the performance side of this sport.

Sure, I would like to win a national. I don't go a national event thinking boy it's going to be great when I go out in the first round. However, winning a national is not my main reason for attending. I go to nationals because I can visit with my friends from around the region and to race my car; in that order. It's very difficult to have respect for an organization that will not live by it's own rule structure. And even it's even more difficult to have respect for people who say it's OK for the organization to play fast and loose with the rules. There isn't a person in this world who has the right to tell me/us how to enjoy our lives or to button up about issues that we see as unfair.

Bart Kilraine · 04-03-2008, 09:37 AM

Make stock a performance based eliminator and you'll see ,maybe,32 car fields and the millionares club.You know the "retired" club with too much money. There is alot of people who are happy to build a car and just run under the index,lets discourge them now and lower the indexes .....Isn't there like top stock and comp?

Dick Butler · 04-03-2008, 09:40 AM

Reward performance. Pay Class winners Same as Eliminator or more. May need to limit number of classes,.STOP creating more classes for fewer cars which adds to bracket method of racing. Consider going to 32 SS and 32 Stock classes. Fit the structure by adjusting your combo for the good of the BIG picture.
Stop factoring by ADDING hp.
Adjust Over factored combos by REMOVING HP. (only till close then let racers make hp ) Use only Motor winning classes as standard then adjust.
Consider late versus early chassis factor(GT aerodynamic versus early BOX cars) for adjustment.
Cut index of all classes to make up for years of performance enhancing parts .
Lynn This would include Pontiac as they would decrease HP for cars which really dont win class till the HP is appropriate for parts available....

Bart.... The Money card is always there. Anyone can run eliminator but the question is are any of the classes cheap. What is cheap? Does NHRA owe it to everyone to make it cheap?make it for everyone?

Harry 6674 · 04-03-2008, 11:05 AM

Good post Rich. throw away the shoe polish tuneups and race. Reward the fast cars, thats the way it should be. It is drag racing not brake light racing. I'm not a high roller but but I would rather be beat by a faster car than out braked at the lights. I was racing in the 60s and it was a lot of work but I feel more rewarding.

Lynn A McCarty · 04-03-2008, 04:29 PM

You gotta make the rules the same for everyone or it is all an exercise in futility. This required the break out rule to "fix" in the first place. (Dick, who says we dont have the replacement parts? We have all the same ones as you. We just have a harder time getting them approved!)

We should run heads up at every race instead of 2-3 practice runs at every race. If you want to practice come a day early for the practice session. The bracket race on Sunday should remain the same. It makes the diversity of S/SS racers second to none.

AHFS should plot each engine family on a curve like we do in the sciences. This makes it a statistical method and not a punishment if someone is innovative. It hits at the heart of everyone's valid objection on this thread. The current method cannot address this.

JIM BOUDREAU · 04-03-2008, 05:19 PM

Evan. I'm for lowering the indexes 3 Tenths. This would enable us to run all out for class and not have to slow our cars down at National Events in the spring and fall. Indexes have been the same for at least the last ----what?---15 years. What does the other side of the fence think of lowering indexes? You are our stk/ ss representative, lets get to work!!!!! Only kidding Evan, I know there are a lot of Stk and SS racers that would like to see this happen. Good luck with your new challenge.

04-02-2008, 08:11 PM	#31
vic guilmino Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: wv Posts: 884 Likes: 42 Liked 56 Times in 21 Posts	Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System evan iam going bye what you have said to me at etown last year and i do not think anybody is running d with f wt. that would be 300 + #s __________________ Vic Guilmino 1129 STK

04-02-2008, 09:22 PM	#32
Bruce Noland VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,855 Likes: 83 Liked 444 Times in 145 Posts	Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System Evan, My beef is with a convoluted rule system that is being administered by hit and run artists. I'm glad you had a good conversation with Wesley. Please do me a favor and ask him why he doesn't bother to announce rule changes before he implements them? Also ask him why he didn't bother to tell all the racers that he had come up with this insane grouping of combinations before he started whacking them? Gettting a straight answer for these two questions would be very helpful. I wish you all the best. I have communicated with two other members of the council in the last 24 hours and sincerely hope all of you can make a difference. Why? Because racers are giving up. In the last three months I have heard more than a few racers say they are having serious thoughts about quitting. __________________ Bruce Noland 1788 STK

04-02-2008, 10:13 PM	#33
Rich Biebel VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northern New Jersey suburbs Posts: 2,314 Likes: 25 Liked 544 Times in 213 Posts	Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System Forgive me for being an outsider making a comment about Stock and the AHFS and what some guys say. It is hard to read some of this stuff and not want to make a comment. It is always pointed out that Stock should be a performance based category and is not bracket racing. Well I have to point out to you that many races are being won by notoriuosly good bracket racers. All over the country winners are often previously known for their bracket racing wins. And it kind of strikes me that no matter what plan or program NHRA devises to try and "equalize" the various combinations......somebody is not happy and starts to point out why it doesn't work, won't work, isn't fair and so on. In the old days.....and I was there and raced under those conditions......YOU RACED OFF YOUR NATIONAL RECORDS...No indexes....sandbag if you want but handicaps were set by your records. I also recall that during some periods if you exceeded your record in a final round, you tore down and if your were good,,,, you got the win and the record as well. You want your integrity back......go back to the old rules and trash the AHFS.........Stop bitching and do some real racing.....I'd rather watch Pinks than modern day Stock the way it's being run with all the sandbagging, whinning and complaining. I raced Stock a very limited number of years with various cars in different eras. I quit after my last short stint and some of you would slam me as an outsider. That's ok....I'm just giving you my point of view as one who has raced it and many other categories as well. Devise a set of rules that let the fast cars win but enforce the rules and put some real racing back into your category. Show off your performance and be willing to tear it down to get the money and hardware. That would make Stock eliminator a hell of a lot better and definately seperate yourselves from us "lowly" bracket and super class racers! Flame on.... __________________ Rich Biebel S/C 1479 Stock 147R

04-02-2008, 10:53 PM	#34
vic guilmino Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: wv Posts: 884 Likes: 42 Liked 56 Times in 21 Posts	Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System that system was tried and did not work but no system is going to make everbody happy i have raced since july 1960 and that seen a lot of things tried i go to nationals event for one reason TO WIN CLASS EVAN next time i see you i will buy you a beer thats root beer of corse __________________ Vic Guilmino 1129 STK

04-03-2008, 09:13 AM	#35
Bruce Noland VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,855 Likes: 83 Liked 444 Times in 145 Posts	Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System I love it when guys come out here and say stop your bitching when racers have legitimate complaints about the condition of our sport - especially when these guys have nothing to do with the issue. I can speak for some of the go fast guys when I say we have no problem with the bracket racers who do well in this sport. But for us the real problems come up when we are unfairly penalized for enjoying the performance side of this sport. Sure, I would like to win a national. I don't go a national event thinking boy it's going to be great when I go out in the first round. However, winning a national is not my main reason for attending. I go to nationals because I can visit with my friends from around the region and to race my car; in that order. It's very difficult to have respect for an organization that will not live by it's own rule structure. And even it's even more difficult to have respect for people who say it's OK for the organization to play fast and loose with the rules. There isn't a person in this world who has the right to tell me/us how to enjoy our lives or to button up about issues that we see as unfair. __________________ Bruce Noland 1788 STK

04-03-2008, 09:37 AM	#36
Bart Kilraine Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Carrolltown,PA Posts: 118 Likes: 0 Liked 11 Times in 6 Posts	Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System Make stock a performance based eliminator and you'll see ,maybe,32 car fields and the millionares club.You know the "retired" club with too much money. There is alot of people who are happy to build a car and just run under the index,lets discourge them now and lower the indexes .....Isn't there like top stock and comp?

04-03-2008, 09:40 AM	#37
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System Reward performance. Pay Class winners Same as Eliminator or more. May need to limit number of classes,.STOP creating more classes for fewer cars which adds to bracket method of racing. Consider going to 32 SS and 32 Stock classes. Fit the structure by adjusting your combo for the good of the BIG picture. Stop factoring by ADDING hp. Adjust Over factored combos by REMOVING HP. (only till close then let racers make hp ) Use only Motor winning classes as standard then adjust. Consider late versus early chassis factor(GT aerodynamic versus early BOX cars) for adjustment. Cut index of all classes to make up for years of performance enhancing parts . Lynn This would include Pontiac as they would decrease HP for cars which really dont win class till the HP is appropriate for parts available.... Bart.... The Money card is always there. Anyone can run eliminator but the question is are any of the classes cheap. What is cheap? Does NHRA owe it to everyone to make it cheap?make it for everyone? Last edited by Dick Butler; 04-03-2008 at 09:48 AM.

04-03-2008, 11:05 AM	#38
Harry 6674 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 589 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System Good post Rich. throw away the shoe polish tuneups and race. Reward the fast cars, thats the way it should be. It is drag racing not brake light racing. I'm not a high roller but but I would rather be beat by a faster car than out braked at the lights. I was racing in the 60s and it was a lot of work but I feel more rewarding.

04-03-2008, 04:29 PM	#39
Lynn A McCarty Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Plainfield (INDY) Indiana Posts: 468 Likes: 1 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System You gotta make the rules the same for everyone or it is all an exercise in futility. This required the break out rule to "fix" in the first place. (Dick, who says we dont have the replacement parts? We have all the same ones as you. We just have a harder time getting them approved!) We should run heads up at every race instead of 2-3 practice runs at every race. If you want to practice come a day early for the practice session. The bracket race on Sunday should remain the same. It makes the diversity of S/SS racers second to none. AHFS should plot each engine family on a curve like we do in the sciences. This makes it a statistical method and not a punishment if someone is innovative. It hits at the heart of everyone's valid objection on this thread. The current method cannot address this. __________________ Lynn A McCarty 3470 SS Last edited by Lynn A McCarty; 04-03-2008 at 04:49 PM.

04-03-2008, 05:19 PM	#40
JIM BOUDREAU Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 21 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System Evan. I'm for lowering the indexes 3 Tenths. This would enable us to run all out for class and not have to slow our cars down at National Events in the spring and fall. Indexes have been the same for at least the last ----what?---15 years. What does the other side of the fence think of lowering indexes? You are our stk/ ss representative, lets get to work!!!!! Only kidding Evan, I know there are a lot of Stk and SS racers that would like to see this happen. Good luck with your new challenge.