2023 COPO Camaro 632

Jim Bailey · 01-08-2023, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DG

Maybe a hand crafted race car with a 632 cubic inch purpose built race engine doesn't belong in "Stock Eliminator" which originated as a class for factory production assembled car cars with at least 500 units made available and in the hands of the general public.

I like running against the new high performance production cars, but what is being allowed in stock eliminator has gotten ridiculous. Maybe that's the sticking point for NHRA?

DG, that horse left the barn in 2009. And it was the sanctioning bodies that let it out. I think that most Stock racers agree that ALL (Mopar, Ford, and GM) FACTORY BUILT RACECARS belong in Super Stock, or Comp. ... (anyone that has ever owned one knows it) ... However, that's not the way it is, and it is 2023, and this is the hand we've been delt. If you wanna keep running Stock Eliminator there's no choice, other than deal with it.

DG · 01-08-2023, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Bailey

DG, that horse left the barn in 2009. And it was the sanctioning bodies that let it out. I think that most Stock racers agree that ALL (Mopar, Ford, and GM) FACTORY BUILT RACECARS belong in Super Stock, or Comp. ... (anyone that has ever owned one knows it) ... However, that's not the way it is, and it is 2023, and this is the hand we've been delt. If you wanna keep running Stock Eliminator there's no choice, other than deal with it.

Agree, the horse has left the barn on FS, but I think Stock is on a very slippery slope and if were not careful incremental changes will cause it to loose its identity over time. Look at Super Stock since the '90's. First NHRA allowed the modifieds into SS, then GT cars, later FWD GT cars, then the FSS cars and now FGT. Super Stock has changed a lot in the name of progress, one increment at a time. I still love super stock, but as a bit of a purist, I want to protect and preserve what's unique and special about Stock Eliminator.

Alan Roehrich · 01-09-2023, 12:00 AM

The Modified classes were placed in Super Stock (some of them) when NHRA killed Modified Eliminator in order to give us Super Gas, after the 1981 season. The GT cars came in shortly afterward, to encourage the OE's to invest in drag racing, since nothing they were building to sell was of any interest to 99% of racers. The FWD GT classes came a bit after that, as a natural extension, when the OE's almost completely ceased rear wheel drive production. The Factory classes are much like the FI classes were to Stock a few years ago, pretty much the only way to protect the traditional cars and combinations from being completely annihilated, and made totally obsolete.

IHRA tried the Crate Motor Stock and GT Stock classes, th'ey didn't get picked up by NHRA, and I doubt NHRA is considering it now.

The Factory cars, years ago, would have been treated like the Super Stock Hemi cars were, and shoved straight into Super Stock, but not allowed in Stock, except for, once again, NHRA wanted a cash transfusion from the OE's, and wanted the OE's to get involved again.

I can remember a close friend, who shall go unnamed, came to dinner in our pits one night, about 2010. He proceeded to tell me that he didn't "see how the Factory car he was driving could be in AA/SA with our ancient 69 Camaro 427/427 (435)". They had pulled the engine out, and put it on the dyno before they ever made a pass. He told me that "it made more than 100HP out of the box" than my relatively competitive 427/425 did.The two cars were rated almost the same, his was at 425, ours was at 435, because we had 401 heads on it. So he was 10HP/75# lighter than we were, and 100+HP better, without turning a screw. Admittedly, we were never a threat to set the A/SA or AA/SA record, but we have a few class trophies, and a few heads up wins, so we weren't a back marker, either.

I'm all for a combination starting with a rating that makes it relatively attractive and competitive. But having a 100+HP advantage on the dyno and a factor/rating 10HP lower than an established combination is pretty much just stupid.

GUMP · 01-09-2023, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Bailey

DG, that horse left the barn in 2009. And it was the sanctioning bodies that let it out. I think that most Stock racers agree that ALL (Mopar, Ford, and GM) FACTORY BUILT RACECARS belong in Super Stock, or Comp. ... (anyone that has ever owned one knows it) ... However, that's not the way it is, and it is 2023, and this is the hand we've been delt. If you wanna keep running Stock Eliminator there's no choice, other than deal with it.

Which Stock Eliminator rule was changed exclusively to let the factory cars participate?

The only differences between a COPO and a Camaro in Stock Eliminator legal trim are the motor and the hood. There were several cars built in the late sixties specifically for Stock that fit the same format. The A12 Mopars come to mind.

There are a few combinations that I think should not have made the cut. But honestly, what are the automakers doing today that is so different from 1969?

This continual bashing of legal cars is getting old.

mnmaxwedge · 01-09-2023, 09:35 PM

A12 not a good example Gump. My buddy bought an A12 car off a used car lot in 1974. It had about 30000 miles on the odo. I'd like to see a late model COPO with similar mileage.

Alan Roehrich · 01-09-2023, 09:50 PM

A lot of the "factory car" combinations were either never actually produced as a running vehicle at all (there were some Cobra Jet engines that not a single example was ever even assembled by Ford), or there were never 50 of them built in a year.

If you offer 50-60 total cars for sale, and have 2-4 or more engine combinations available in that year, and a few of each engine combinations are sold, the NONE of them hit the "50 sold" mark.

They took the 1967 L-88 Corvette out of the guide, for only 36 being sold (more than enough to make it "legal" went out the back door) through the dealers.

I've said this several times. If the "50 sold" rule is waived for the "factory cars", then the 1967 L-88 Corvette should be back in the guide.

GUMP · 01-09-2023, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

...I've said this several times. If the "50 sold" rule is waived for the "factory cars", then the 1967 L-88 Corvette should be back in the guide.

I think that would be COOL!

(Would it run Stock or just Super Stock?)

GTX JOHN · 01-10-2023, 12:33 AM

I bought an A12 Roadrunner that held the National Record and I
raced it AND drove it to work for years. Whole different time and tech
in stock in early 1970s. My brother drove a A12 Super Bee to High School!

Very Streetable cars with mild camshafts and not a ton of Valve spring pressure (About 140 to 150 on the seat). There were 4 A12s on the street in our little town back then not counting the dedicated trailered cars.

01-10-2023, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GUMP

I think that would be COOL!

(Would it run Stock or just Super Stock?)

Stock of course!

Tony Fagnilli · 01-10-2023, 12:45 PM

I'm not exactly sure what all the hub-bub is about. Why would anyone care what combinations the NHRA allows? unless it's a heads up, it is just bracket racing.

01-09-2023, 12:00 AM	#3
Alan Roehrich Veteran Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Murfreesboro TN Posts: 5,105 Likes: 1,564 Liked 1,789 Times in 408 Posts	Re: 2023 COPO Camaro 632 The Modified classes were placed in Super Stock (some of them) when NHRA killed Modified Eliminator in order to give us Super Gas, after the 1981 season. The GT cars came in shortly afterward, to encourage the OE's to invest in drag racing, since nothing they were building to sell was of any interest to 99% of racers. The FWD GT classes came a bit after that, as a natural extension, when the OE's almost completely ceased rear wheel drive production. The Factory classes are much like the FI classes were to Stock a few years ago, pretty much the only way to protect the traditional cars and combinations from being completely annihilated, and made totally obsolete. IHRA tried the Crate Motor Stock and GT Stock classes, th'ey didn't get picked up by NHRA, and I doubt NHRA is considering it now. The Factory cars, years ago, would have been treated like the Super Stock Hemi cars were, and shoved straight into Super Stock, but not allowed in Stock, except for, once again, NHRA wanted a cash transfusion from the OE's, and wanted the OE's to get involved again. I can remember a close friend, who shall go unnamed, came to dinner in our pits one night, about 2010. He proceeded to tell me that he didn't "see how the Factory car he was driving could be in AA/SA with our ancient 69 Camaro 427/427 (435)". They had pulled the engine out, and put it on the dyno before they ever made a pass. He told me that "it made more than 100HP out of the box" than my relatively competitive 427/425 did.The two cars were rated almost the same, his was at 425, ours was at 435, because we had 401 heads on it. So he was 10HP/75# lighter than we were, and 100+HP better, without turning a screw. Admittedly, we were never a threat to set the A/SA or AA/SA record, but we have a few class trophies, and a few heads up wins, so we weren't a back marker, either. I'm all for a combination starting with a rating that makes it relatively attractive and competitive. But having a 100+HP advantage on the dyno and a factor/rating 10HP lower than an established combination is pretty much just stupid. __________________ Alan Roehrich 212A G/S

01-09-2023, 09:35 PM	#5
mnmaxwedge Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 97 Likes: 56 Liked 172 Times in 53 Posts	Re: 2023 COPO Camaro 632 A12 not a good example Gump. My buddy bought an A12 car off a used car lot in 1974. It had about 30000 miles on the odo. I'd like to see a late model COPO with similar mileage.

01-09-2023, 09:50 PM	#6
Alan Roehrich Veteran Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Murfreesboro TN Posts: 5,105 Likes: 1,564 Liked 1,789 Times in 408 Posts	Re: 2023 COPO Camaro 632 A lot of the "factory car" combinations were either never actually produced as a running vehicle at all (there were some Cobra Jet engines that not a single example was ever even assembled by Ford), or there were never 50 of them built in a year. If you offer 50-60 total cars for sale, and have 2-4 or more engine combinations available in that year, and a few of each engine combinations are sold, the NONE of them hit the "50 sold" mark. They took the 1967 L-88 Corvette out of the guide, for only 36 being sold (more than enough to make it "legal" went out the back door) through the dealers. I've said this several times. If the "50 sold" rule is waived for the "factory cars", then the 1967 L-88 Corvette should be back in the guide. __________________ Alan Roehrich 212A G/S

01-10-2023, 12:33 AM	#8
GTX JOHN VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Boulder City, Nevada 89005 Posts: 2,731 Likes: 2,794 Liked 2,470 Times in 696 Posts	Re: 2023 COPO Camaro 632 I bought an A12 Roadrunner that held the National Record and I raced it AND drove it to work for years. Whole different time and tech in stock in early 1970s. My brother drove a A12 Super Bee to High School! Very Streetable cars with mild camshafts and not a ton of Valve spring pressure (About 140 to 150 on the seat). There were 4 A12s on the street in our little town back then not counting the dedicated trailered cars. __________________ John Irving 741 Stock 741 Super Stock

01-10-2023, 12:45 PM	#10
Tony Fagnilli Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 94 Likes: 94 Liked 205 Times in 44 Posts	Re: 2023 COPO Camaro 632 I'm not exactly sure what all the hub-bub is about. Why would anyone care what combinations the NHRA allows? unless it's a heads up, it is just bracket racing.